EVOLUTION, FACT OR FALLICY The following, is a summary of the various arguments brought up in a recent debate on Savior BBS (604-599-4191). Each topic represents one persons posted message. For summarizing purposes many messages have been edited and some have been omited. Items in square brackets, [], are the editors notes. -Daryl Meerkerk SUPPORT FOR THEORY OF EVOLUTION CREATION IS HOGWASH The only account of creation is in the Bible! The Bible is just a book of myths. The earliest recorded copy we have of it was written hundreds and for the O.T. thousands of years after it was written. The book is so inaccurate due to changes made over the years that any truth it might have contained is completely lost. Also it is full of contradictions. How can anyone believe it? PROOF OF EVOLUTION A self sustaining universe. All around us we see change, in government, people, solar systems, molecules, and everything else in the Universe. These changes occur because they have a cause. A molecule may change because of energy, a person could change because of an event, etc. All of these causes and changes in their totality is a very complex structure and when God created the Universe, it seems reasonable that he would make it in such a way, that it would be self preserving. God would not have to constantly mind his creation, instead the Universe would have implicit rules for handling causes and changes. Evolution is one of these rules. It provides the ability, of a species, to survive by changing with respect to causes such as the environment. The Cave Man The bones of our ancestors have been found! If evolution were not true, where would these bones come from? There are also shell fossils, which show the progression of sea life from a primitive level to a more sophisticated level. We learn about man by comparing us with our predecessors and peers. We know that man is a primate. We are similar to other members of the primate family in that we have a grasping hand with nails instead of claws, a large brain, and have developed our sense of sight at the expense of our sense of smell. We share many other things, such as posture and blood type, with our closest relatives the apes. The Nationalities The evidence of evolution is visible today in the different races. There are Australoids, Caucasoids, Mongoloids, and Negroids and Bushmen. These are all strains of the Homo-sapien family which has its peers in the Neanderthal family, of which many remains have been discovered. Both of the above mentioned families have come from the Hominidae family. This family is peers with the Pongidae family from which Chimpanzees and Gorillas come. So you see we are a part of an evolving society which keeps improving to be better suited to our surroundings. Adaptation For arguments sake let us assume that the Earth is 4.6 billion years old. This is an adequate time period for the affects of macro-evolution to take place. No organism of any species is exactly the same as any other organism from the same species. Some may have darker skin, longer necks etc. This is because of genetic mutation. Now, because of different characteristics of organisms of the same species certain organisms are better equipped to adapt to there surroundings. (ie. animals with longer necks may be able to reach more leaves than ones with short necks and thus be able to obtain more food). This will lead to the survival of certain members of a species while others will die. (ie. a red snake that lives in grass would be easily spotted by its predators but a green snake might be able to hide). These characteristics are passed on to an organisms offspring and thus the offspring, just like its parents, are also better adapted to the environment. This process continues, and with a great amount of time, does give rise to great change. The key is that the organisms that have these certain characteristics that make them more able to survive will live long enough to pass on there genes to there young. The others will die and not reproduce. Proof comes in fossil evidence where bones have been found that correspond to different stages of a species existence. The Age of the Earth The Theory of Evolution requires that the age of the Earth is about 4.6 billion years old. This is in direct contrast with the age of the Earth, as indicated by the Bible, of 10,000 years. To prove that the Earth is indeed 4.6 billion years old would provide great evidence to support the Theory of Evolution. I will provide two justifications of the statement that the Earth is 4.6 billion years old. First is radioactive dating. When uranium 238 decays, it turns in to iron 206 [Uranium 238 actually turns into Lead 206, and so on thruout this topic -Ed]. One cannot estimate when a single atom will decay because the process is random; but the average rate of decay can be determined for a large number of atoms. This rate of decay is indicated by the "half life" of an element. Half of a sample of uranium 238 decays to iron 206 in 4.5 billion years (half life). This process is true for other radioactive elements as well, such as argon (with a half life of 1.3 billion years). Given a rock containing uranium 238 and lead 206 and knowing the half-life of uranium, one can calculate the age of the rock by determining how long it would have taken to form the observed amount of lead by radioactive decay. A factor, which must be known, is the amount of iron that was initially in the rock. This is known from chemical considerations. [I feel this could be where this method becomes ridiculously inaccurate. - Ed] Using this method, rocks on the Earth have been dated as old as 4.5 billion years old. This is in support of the Theory of Evolution. Second is the distance to stars. Using the method of Spectroscopic distance, which is basically measuring the distance by the light output of a star (more light less distance and vice versa), one can determine the approximate distance to stars. Using this method, there are stars with distances of 10 million light years, which means light would take 10 million years to get from the star to the Earth. According to Relativity, Maxwell's equations, and experiment the speed of light is constant no matter where you are, or how fast you are going. Now, seeing that we observe the light from these stars, it must of travelled from the star to the Earth, and since light travels at a constant speed, and it would take light 10 million years to get from the star to the Earth the Universe must me at least 10 million years old. This makes is reasonable to see that the Earth is 4.6 billion years old. SUPPORT FOR THE THEORY OF CREATION EVOLUTION BASHING Age of the Earth - Rebuttal Let's try some mental gymnastics here for a minute. Just for the sake of argument, let's assume that the world is in fact created. Now let me ask you a question: How old are Adam and Eve the day after they are created? The answer is: one day old. But how old do you think they appeared to be? They were likely in their mid- to late-twenties. They were created mature, and that means physically, mentally, emotionally, (and spiritually). If there is a Creator who is powerful enough to create the universe (but whatever means!), would He be powerful enough to not only the stars millions of light years away, but to also create the light between the Earth and that star so that it could be seen as soon as it was created? Makes sense to me! [There seems to be a reason why God created the Earth but I see no reason why God would create the light. Why would God give the illusion of an old Universe? -EVOLUTIONIST] Evolution is incomplete. That is, there are missing links all over (the transition between reptiles to birds is based on one fossil finding of one animal). In creation, all points are clearly defined. The universe, and all the animals that exist today (and the rest of life.) Yes, even the dinosaurs are mentioned in the book of Job (40:15). ??!! That is the _BIG_ difference between the scientific theories and creation. Science has not yet disproved anything which has occurred in the Bible. Why should the first book of the Bible contain anything false, considering the rest of the historical records in the rest of the Bible are so geographically correct (proven by archaeology)? Science still has a long way to go to discover everything. I believe in God, because He knows what Science doesn't. Inter-breeding. How a species of giraffes can all agree on getting long necks at the same time. Why don't some decide to feed on other things, and thus adapt differently? The two sides wouldn't branch off, because then they will interbreed, and their offspring will have the average of the two, or one or the other, and the species won't get anywhere. If all species of animal evolved this way, they would be able to interbreed, and reproduce this way. The way I see it, if this happened, all the animals on the earth would have the potential of being close to the same looking thing. Donkeys and Mules. Let me say that we do have plenty of evidence (proof even) to acknowledge that evolution does occur, but it seems that it is very limited in its scope; that is micro-evolution. (Us non-scientists call it adaptation.) But there is, I believe very little hard evidence for macro-evolution. In other words, dogs can be bred to produce different varieties of dogs: that is micro- evolution. But a dog can not be bred into a cat or any other species. There are changes and adaptations continually happening, but is always WITHIN a species. Before any species can change into another new species, it seems that the animals (or plants) become sterile. For example it takes a horse and a donkey ?? to produce a mule, but mules cannot have offspring! They are sterile. I do accept micro-evolution, but that does not provide evidence that macro-evolution actually occurs. (It would provide a very nice model for macro- evolution, though, if it did in fact occur.) Biological Proof The whole topic of order coming out of chaos is incredibly interesting but isn't always characterized by diversity coming out of the 'code' that determines the pattern of an object or life form. For instance a fern has patterns that repeat at smaller and smaller scales. When that info is passed on there's no reason I'd expect you'd get anything different than a fern pattern. I guess what I'm trying to say is that having the information for the diversity of life coming out of one-celled organisms is a bit difficult for me to comprehend. [Adam and Eve had to contain the instructions ie. the genes for all of mankind. This has been proven by biology. If we come from an amoeba, our genes must have been stored in it. This is what she is finding hard to believe.] On the other hand there is incredible diversity in the Mandelbrodt set which is generated using a simple set of instructions. [eg. Computer file compression] PROOF OF CREATION Thermodynamics The Second law of Thermodynamics deals with a trend in nature. It can be thought of as times arrow. Consider a book which slides across a rough table and comes to a rest. Consequently, the table and the book warm up slightly (1st Law) since no energy can be lost within this closed system. Later on the table could cool down and the energy could be transformed to make the book move, but we all know this would never happen. This fact is explained by the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. This Law simply stated is: "The amount of disorder in the universe is always increasing but during any structured process the amount of disorder either stays the same or is reduced." In the book example an orderly force in one direction in transformed into heat which is random motion of molecules. Now to apply this Law to macro-evolution: If the universe is initially formless and/or void. This would represent the ultimate in disorder. There is no way this disorderly mess can evolve itself to an orderly operating human being or for that matter an amoeba which is highly orderly in its operations with respect to its beginnings; without violating this fundamental law of physics. Applying this Law to the 'Creationists' theory it fits perfectly." And God saw all that he had made, and behold, it was very good." Genesis 2:31a In my opinion the world was perfect and therefore the utmost in orderliness since sin had not yet entered the world through Adam. From that point on man has continued to make the world more and more disorderly. Physicists conclude "Since the entropy [disorderliness] of the universe never decreases, it must tend towards some maximum value. Eventually, as the entry of the universe approaches its maximum value, everything will approach the same temperature, and there will be no way to convert the thermal energy of the universe into useful mechanical work. The close approach of the universe to this 'heat death' is far in the future." quote from "College Physics" by Franklin Miller. p.407 In my opinion the universe will be destroyed long before then; after the return of The Lord Jesus Christ. Without going on to long I would like to add that this Law is not violated by micro-evolution since the orderliness of a portion of the universe can decrease. Like when a human sorts out a deck of cards. In fact most human activities produce an increase in orderliness BUT the by-products of those actions increase the disorderliness in an adjacent part of the universe causing a net increase in disorderliness.