'Inter-dependent Origination' [Part 2] on 6 October 2000 A Teaching by Aenpo Rinpoche Rinpoche, what about people in the West who are in robes but don't have the support like the monastic institution? The things that we do, whatever the things that are being done in a place where we have a lot of time - like for the monks in a monastery - there are things we can do, there are things we can't do. The things that we are capable of, there are things that we're not capable of. It is actually not necessarily whether one is in the monks community or in the Sangha community or out of Sangha community and living in a secluded place, secluded from the Sangha, because it is actually all up to one's own mind. As I say, there are certain monks who think monk's life is difficult - that's his thinking, or there are certain nuns that think this, and that's her thinking. Now, they indulge in the lay people's life and they get lost and it's all because they don't know how to make use of those trainings. Therefore it might appear that the Sangha, or the people who are in the Sanghaship, in the community, might have more of a chance to do practice but it is not necessarily true. In the past, historically most of the Tibetan great masters were not really from the monastery, most of them spent their life in the lay people's busy life. So it is not necessary to be surrounded by people, after all Buddha said "Do not rely upon the person, rely upon the teachings," because wherever you go, the teachings or the words that have been passed by your teacher travels with you anywhere you go. Therefore that is actually the real Sangha, not in the formal, physical sense, but those very teachings, the words that we have, becomes the teacher, only if you think seriously upon it. It is again interdependent because the effort that has been put in by the teachers is now being used by the students for the betterment of one's life and now we, knowing that, try to help and hand it over to other people. This is now another cycle of interdependent origination. Thought processes and actions are linked and they generate karma. What about if you or your actions deny your thought processes and your thought processes might be dark but you force your actions to be good in spite of your thought processes? That means thinking bad, doing good? Yes. When we talk about karma there are different types of karma, negative, positive, neutral. Negative things that we do quite often without thinking, things like being aggressive or being desirous toward other people or being ignorant or obstructive towards other people, you don't really have to focus upon it to do it, you just can do it straight away. It's so easy. Then now we have to be nice to other people, you have to try to be nice to other people. There's a big question whether you can be successful or not. When you're forcing a situation of being good when you thoughts are not good, you're not successful all the time, sometimes you can achieve it. Sometimes those achievements can also be non-achievements. To give an example, when hunters hunt and kill their prey, they're successful, it's their achievement, but in fact it's not good for their mind and not good for their life. Even in this lifetime, people might say that he's bad. There are also things, for example if one can put effort in doing the things positively and obtaining the result it is being successful. Now the second question arises, now after being successful in being positive the big question is whether the pride will come or not. Once you're successful you think "Oh I'm successful I can do that - I can do better than other people." Even though you are quite successful in being compassionate because of the things that we have done in the past, whether past lifetime or even in this lifetime for the past years, it reacts with the energy that has been left over which we call the propensities that we have. Now that will come and obstruct you and then that stops you from being successful. In your tradition is there a shared karma? In terms of the things that I do and the karmic actions that I create can interact with other peoples karma and it's shared - or it mutates with other people. Shared karma? Like a disease. Can I catch your karma? No, karma is actually individual. Whatever things I do, the karma that has been accumulated, has not necessarily been derived from your karma. But your karma has caused - it is like your mind has caused my mind to think this and that and then I keep doing it. Then my mind has caused others to think this and that, and that will follow. So it keeps going and going and going on, that's why in Buddhism we say it's since beginningless time. What is the beginning of that? The beginning of that is beginningless because it is so far away and you can't really find it out and it keeps rotating, rotating, rotating. When it's spinning you can't point out what is the beginning. In the case of 12 Links of Interdependent Origination we say the basic thing is ignorance but that ignorance also comes from the other ignorances as well. We distribute it into three lifetimes the very last one has birth and old age and death and that brings over the first ignorance and the mental formation and then it continues again with the rest of the links and it keeps spinning. In your tradition does it break out of the three life cycle? Your karma is only three lives generated? No, that is only just to give a very small picture just to show it is interdependent. But it is applicable to all the lives, all the days we have in this lifetime. Regarding the karma from previous existences that I've had or you've had, so I've had several different karmic amounts that have been awarded, if I've been reborn seven times, so I've got the consequences of seven lives. Are these karmas interdependent or are they separate? Separately interdependent. It is separate and at the same time it is interdependent. Why is it separate? We say separate because seven different lives - seven different levels of karma and compared to this, the result in comparison to the cause, it is separate. But that result has been produced by the cause. In that case, the result has to be the same as the cause, but in fact it is not, it has been produced by the cause, it is different but at the same time it is the same too. It's a bit confusing, but it is like that. Is that like schizophrenic personalities? No, not like that. It is the one mind, there are no different people or different or many minds, it's just all your own. We have been different many times therefore that means our mind has been different many times and that produces many different things. In one day how different we can be, we can be different ten times, "Oh he was very nice an hour before, now what is he doing?" Just like that. Rinpoche, is there a continuous evolution, or do we go backwards? It's cycling, it keeps going on and on and on. You can say backwards, but normally we don't say it, you can put it in terms of things that you have done in the past, that has resulted in this, now you are doing the same thing. Because you are doing the same thing as you have done in those lifetimes it is like you are going backwards but in fact it is keeping on going, that's what we call the stream of the mind or the stream of rebirth. We believe there is an end to this if we stop producing it. So many things are dependent on mind - things depend on how my mind takes it. How can the mind recognize something that isn't mind? Everything in terms of your thinking producing a favorable or positive atmosphere or energy - these things very much depends on your mind. In the Mind Only school or in the Sanskrit school we call Chittamatra or Yogacara it says that the mind is actually permanent and this is where the Madhyamaka says that the mind is not permanent. It is impermanent because there is a time that your mind will stop producing such things and then in that case we call it the transformation of the mind into wisdom. So it's not mind anymore? When it's wisdom it's not mind. It's not ego-generated? Ego is like a friend to the mind. But not a good friend. Many times since I've been around Buddhism I've seen people treating other people very badly and they say "Well it's your mind - you've got to learn to be tolerant, you've got to learn to be patient." But sometimes people take this to an extreme. I don't think that is compassion, though they call it compassion. If it is like that then it's not compassion. But also it is very much dependent again on mind, on thinking. The way people treat somebody most of the time it could be negative but you can't guarantee that it is always like that because when we are not having a good time no matter if other people are trying to do good things to you we still take it as bad. When we have a good mind, a relaxed and happy mind, some people try to do bad things to you but you take it as very good. So it is not always the others that we can blame again. If we are aware of what other people are doing and other people treating us bad and saying that this is a compassionate kind of activities and if we know and believe that it is not a compassionate activity then this is the time for us to practice compassion towards them rather than thinking bad towards them. If you think that they are bad and they are treating you bad and you are feeling bad about it… endless! What if you're not capable? That's why we have to try. What if you can't? This is why it's very difficult. There are years of habit behind the feeling and your emotions. A matter of time. It's a matter of time. You feel sad all the time. It is up to one's own mind how you handle it. There is nobody or somebody else out there - whoever - to put his or her hand on you head and then the suffering will disappear and it's very easy. There is nobody outside there to help you. If you ask for help from somebody who is non-human, it is difficult. It is your own creation and you have to go through it. It doesn't mean the things that we do now will necessarily bear fruit at the very next moment - that's also another question. But we do ask for help from wisdom beings. Say you ask the doctor for help, the doctor will prescribe and diagnose the disease and give you the medicine and if you don't take the treatment you will not be cured. There are certain objects that you can actually help that are existent, asking for help from a non-existent produces non-existence. How does karma and interdependent origination operate in ultimate reality? Interdependent origination is synonymous with emptiness. In that case, in ultimate reality the relative reality is no longer there. Rather, it is inseparability. For we sentient beings to see it is totally different but for the Noble Beings, the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas, they see it as inseparability. They see something totally different from what we see. We see things and we believe it and we perceive it and that's it. For them they don't have to try to think that way - we have to try to think that way. For them it is ultimate reality. In the Sutras it says to understand ultimate reality one has to understand the relative reality properly. Without understanding the relative reality properly one can't really go to the ultimate reality because we are so lost in this relative reality so we can't find what it actually is. When we are in the movies sometimes we watch the movie and it feels like it's really happening but in fact when you think about it, it's not happening, it's just a drama. Therefore actually life is very much just like a movie - it's happening but at the same time it's not happening truly but we see it and we strongly believe that it's happening. If you strongly believe it's happening then it will happen to you. If you realize the relative reality, the 12 Links... Realize not intellectually. Intellectual understanding? No problem you can be a professor at a university, you can be well spoken and be very learned. But that doesn't mean that those antidotes or the teachings has been integrated into one's life and one can really put it into practice and "be" it. It's all because of the lack of practical realization. Rinpoche, will meditation help you realize that? Ok meditation. Generally speaking in Buddhism and especially in Mahayana Buddhism which we are supposed to be practicing, meditation generally speaking - the English definition might say something like you might sit down and inhale and exhale and so on - but in fact Mahayana meditation means "familiarization." This means the things that you have heard, the wisdoms, the antidotes, that you reflect upon it, contemplate upon it again and again and again and again to get familiar with it. So in that aspect, meditation is supposed to help you. Why is it supposed to help you? Because you have built up that energy to face and overcome those problems. It is a matter of getting familiar. There are different ways of meditating too. The Vajrayana highest Buddhist practices are very complex practices, it is very complex and very difficult but if one can do it properly then it is very helpful and if not, if you can't really do it properly, then it can be a cause for you to go lower as well. It's quite dangerous stuff, you have to be very careful and you must make sure that you do it really properly. Tibetan Buddhist masters will not introduce you to the Vajrayana practices straight away, we rather train our mind first through the Sutra teachings, things like the six perfections, the practice of generosity, morality and patience, effort, concentration and wisdom. When your mind is gradually improving then one is introduced to higher practices. Sometimes we don't have those teachings to help and then when doing your practices - whatever highest tantra highest practice of this and that, high this, high that, high high high high - that will build a high ego and that's it. If you can really integrate it then it's good and it's fast, but if you don't then I would not encourage it. We don't really understand our own situation. Not to do it without knowing it. Do the things that you know and you believe in, that this will help. This is why Buddha has said "Don't accept the teachings just out of respect towards me. Analyze the teaching properly and then the goodness that you find out of the analysis, capitalize on it and practice it." In this case it's not about having blind faith - closing your eyes and doing it. But open it and see it and believe it, ok something is going to help you and then do it and then one should do it being quite sure that it is helpful. It's a matter of time too, because when we want help we are so desperate we just want to be free straight away, it's not easy. When you're having your own realizations based on all the information that you've collected through your existence and you have the realizations that have been truths to you, you start to feel right. This is what we call the foundation. Especially when we come to Vajrayana practice we say that we must build a foundation. It means not go straight away to meditate upon emptiness, we start from scratch. Start from the six perfections - like generosity. Not necessarily to set an extreme, but up to one's ability. Then you have an inspirational moment and it's really clear. When things appear like that and it inspires you then we should not let it go, we should seize it and try to do more. To be compassionate and to be a nice person it is not necessary to go through Buddhist practice anyway because we can see many people in this life - probably they can be atheist, Buddhism in one aspect can also be atheist - one can not believe in any religion at all but can be a very nice person. It's all because of how they're trying to think and how they're trying to shape themselves and how they are taught to be, probably by their parents or whoever. Is that in a way like the reincarnation philosophy - you are capable of having a better understanding. Depending upon what level of reincarnation you have, you have an opportunity to understand the Dharma properly. If you've only had 25 lives then- Oh no, we call it countless lives. Countless. This body did not come from the past lifetime but this mind came from the past lifetime. This is what we call the rebirth - it's not the body it's the mind. How many times? How advanced is that mind? Not advanced. If it is equipped and skilled then it is probably not human. Rinpoche, do you personally remember previous lives? I don't but many others do. Frankly speaking I don't remember all my past lives but when I went to Tibet in 1996 some sort of a connection I felt. Indescribable. Some sort of energy there, some sort of feeling, magnetizing. There have been many others when they go back to Tibet they say "Now there is a door and now it goes left then you turn there and there's a box and you open it," like that. It's not so clear for me, but there are many others who are doing that. It has to depend on one's mind. This is how you were in the past. There's not a scientific interpretation? Like DNA structures passed along, genetically..? No nothing to do with bodies. Could the mind be encoded in the DNA structure? No, not in the body. That means I should have the same mind as my parents. No not the same mind, a combination of your mother's and father's. We don't say our mind came from our parents. But certainly we believe that our mind has got a big connection with our parents. Rinpoche, we go from life to life for eternity. We don't have an end as minds, is that correct? Our minds don't end? If we don't try to end it, it will not end. We have to try to stop this because we don't want this interdependent origination cycle, so we have to break that cycle. If we break that cycle and we don't reincarnate anymore, so we still exist? Are we eternal beings? Eternal beings no. There is no such thing as an eternal being. What do you mean? Not in body. Then where is that mind? Why do we have reincarnation after reincarnation? Because the mind needs an object. The mind is reliant. The mind is a resident and needs a residence. Is the Buddha still alive? No Buddha is gone. No, not in the body. But does he exist? Ok in that case, what do you mean by Buddha? The person Gotama. No he's dead. We use the words "He has entered parinirvana." His body is deceased, his mind entered nirvana. So his mind exists? No it's not a mind, it's a wisdom. So there is an end, yes that's the end because he wanted to stop that - so he stopped it. Where is that wisdom? Why do we have to be good if we're going to disappear? We have to disappear. Common problem: population! Secondly, we don't want to disappear because we love ourselves too much. That is the problem that is not allowing us to stop. Why do I follow the Buddha? You have to ask that question yourself. His wisdom doesn't exist, his mind doesn't exist... Buddha said "All I can give you is my teaching, my experience that I have put into words and my experience - like emptiness - is indescribable but at least I'll try to give it a name." He called it emptiness or dharmadatu or suchness, thatness, voidness, nothingness, there are many names. He said "Whenever you need help don't come to me and ask for me to come because I'm not going to come there and put my hand on you and you will be helped, I'm not going to do that." It's very clearly prophecied. "All you can do, the help that I can give you is the words that I've given you. Treasure it and follow it." He said that he's quite sure that by this process to reach that level. "Now you do it properly and you will reach that level, this is all I can offer." That's what the Buddha said. You reach a level and you stay on this level forever...? Yes. Forever. I don't like that word. We call it irreversible. The wisdom is an irreversible state. And it's everywhere? What do you mean everywhere? There's no "place to go" as such. That is the cessation of suffering and then the truth of the path. We follow that path and then all these links of interdependent origination cease. On top of that nirvana is also ceased. After samsara we go to nirvana but it's not like my body is "going" there, it's all in your mind process. Then after that if you say this nirvana exists then it means you are falling into an extreme that we call nihilism because we are falling into one extreme. Since we know that things don't exist at all and then because of that we can't say that this is non- existent either because the non-existent has to be dependent upon the existence and that very existence we analyze. Even with the human mind we can actually experience a little bit and see that actually things don't exist as we believe solidly or inherently existent. Now it's non-existent. Now can we say is it either? Is it existent, non-existent, both? No. Because existence and non- existence are both contradictory, these two things can't mix together. The second reason is that since there is no existence and non-existence how can there be two. Is it neither? Neither has to rely upon either. So in a way it is devoid of all extremes. This is why another word for emptiness is inexpressible. The language constructs are very limiting. Very. It is because it is experience. Buddha says "Even though I am enlightened I can't give you the words, so I'll just try to give you a word, it is something like emptiness and the truth is inexpressible. This is the experience you can't really write it down." It's like eating something and trying to just tell somebody it tastes like that or the color is like that, but unless you experience it yourself you will not know how it is. You can't really put it down in writing, you can sort of say it is a bit sweet or something, but that will not give you the full information unless you experience it yourself. From a marketing point of view it's not that good. The Christians did a nice one, you go to this guy in the sky with lots of angels and lots of food. With the Muslim one you get fed grapes by hand with lots of nymphs surrounding you. With the Buddhist one all you get is nothing. It goes to show how business-minded we are. With what we do, we want something straight away. One hand gives, one hand takes. nothing-dot-com But that is still something. Getting nothing is actually getting everything. It is the truth. That is very very far. Now what we have to work more on is something that we as a human can at least do, not something that is unreachable. For me, I'm looking for something practical. The end thing, the end result, the emptiness is not really practical in everyday life... In Buddhist teachings there are three different types of teaching to suit the majority of the three different people, the three different minds. Many intend just to be hassle-free, many want to go beyond that for some sort of level of liberation. There are certain people who like to be completely eliminated from all these things. There are three different levels of dispositions and to suit that there are three different teachings. The first is the things that you can practice, very practical things like compassion. Then the compassion is categorized into three different types of compassion, there are different ways of practicing. In the start we say practice our compassion towards those who are close to you - to your mother or friends or brothers or sisters. Then slowly go, add one person more, two more, three more, this is how you can be more compassionate to others. Just to sit in your room and thinking when you are having a good time you can think "Oh be compassionate to all sentient beings," it's very easy. Rinpoche, regarding the three mental dispositions. With each of those, if they come across the Dharma and do the practice for that particular mental disposition then possibly when they come back they can move on to the next mental disposition. Is that part of the structure? You mean as a human? If you're not really looking for the higher path, just looking for this very practical one, and then when you're reincarnated you might move on to the next one. We love to live peacefully and then we actually can't live peacefully so we need help. So we, for a Buddhist, they will adopt Buddhist directions, and for the Hindus they will adopt Hinduism. It's all because we love ourselves too much and just want to be peaceful, it's fine, you can use that as well. There are many other people, that are just not happy with just oneself, they want others to be more happy, then they want to help others. But to help others - say if a person is drowning in a river, if you don't know how to swim and on top of that if you are limbless, then when you try to jump, you really can't save them. You really need full power and full strength and the ability to help others so therefore you must build this strength and power. There are others that think upon others more than oneself. But the same thing, this compassion can be practiced in three categories as well. Mahayana advises one to concentrate upon other sentient being primarily. In the Hinayana, the lower vehicle, it teaches you individual liberation, which means to forget about other people and do yourself. Even within Buddhism there are two different things. The Mahayana sees that it's all yourself then that's a problem - it's all me me me me me. That's a problem, because the other one says mine mine mine, and then there's a clash and then there's difficulty. If you think of others then you can at least work together. Rinpoche, there are so many different teachings of the Dharma and you were talking about meditation being contemplation, so each moment when you're living and something happens there are so many different teachings to draw from. In any situation I could think this or this or this. Which one is the best? Yes. You have to see which one is best for you. Because there are so many medicines for headache relief, panadol or aspirin. For some people aspirin is better than panadol, for some people panadol is better than aspirin. There are so many remedies, which one is most helpful for you, you use that. It's up to us really. The teacher will pass it to you, these are the remedies. When we pick up a topic, something like karma, we talk about karma but in fact we talk about so many things, you can't really apply all these things so whichever is more suitable, whichever is more helpful to you, pick that and practice more on that. Try to do everything and you'll get nothing, it's better to get one thing and then finally you get everything included in that. Sometimes the one I think would be the best I can't do. I think, in this situation it would be really good if I could do this and... That's your expectation. You expect to be so high. You expect instant relief but it doesn't happen instantly sometimes, and then think "Oh this is not good," but it doesn't mean that. Whichever is more suitable. Maybe this is not very suitable today, so use another one. Maybe try to do your own way sometimes, a little bit, because we try to do something which is totally unfamiliar and now you try to do something and you get tired of it very easily. So have a bit of a break from that and then also just try to suit you better. I think the biggest beauty of Buddhism is the relief that you yourself are in charge and you don't need supreme intervention, it's up to me, I'm the one in charge. It's up to me, I think it's great. It's empowering rather than disempowering and it's scary too. Since everything depends on ourselves we must make sure that we do things correctly. Just because we see things and believe it 100% that this is the one, and probably after three years you look back and say not really, and you see something more. It's nice if there's some sort of light somewhere. Some teaching, some inspirational direction. We can cling on to it. This is why the karma turns the great wheel of interdependent origination, we are doing, karma is not something very different. Karma is a Sanskrit word which means "doing" or "action." In Tibetan we call it leh - activities. So when you do something, it produces something. There are three different karmas: producing positive, producing negative and producing equanimity, neutral, like sleeping. Mental karma? Physical karma, verbal karma and mental karma. But in fact physical karma and verbal karma both dependent upon the mental karma, because when you want to say something you think first and then your mind makes you say it and the mind makes you do it. This is interconnected. When I'm thirsty it's like the body is talking to the mind and the mind says ok I want to get the water and makes your body go and bring it. Rinpoche, my mind is so randomly erratic once when I was doing breathing meditation I wasn't even able to hold my concentration and count ten breaths. Actually it's more like "go with the flow." Seven Pointed Mind Training and Parting From the Four Attachments - there are so many teachings and pith instructions on mind training and actually it's a different text and slightly different way of explaining but in fact it all talks about how to be compassionate and how to be nice and how you can be disadvantaged by being negative and the advantages in being nice. How you really contemplate upon it. The teachings have been taught and now it's up to you. Just to practice compassion there are also different ways. If there was only one way then maybe that one way may not be helpful to you, so you might seek something else. The two major vehicles you explained before - one is very focused on self- liberation and the second based on universal compassion. What about Theravadan Buddhism? This is more individual, individual is the priority. Because you yourself is the one who is having the problem. So you solve your problem and you do it yourself and you will be liberated. The Mahayana says that is too shortsighted. It doesn't say that you should do things for others always and not for yourself, it never says that. It's mutual benefit. You do good things for others that brings good things to you. Mutual benefit. But when we do it we should not expect "I'm doing it nice for him so I hope he can give me something else." Is Theravadan a more Western orientation? Even for the Tibetans sometimes the Mahayana is not suitable. Some practice Hinayana. Actually Tibetan Buddhism is the combination of all these three. Hinayana and Mahayana, and Mahayana has got two - Sutrayana and Vajrayana. Tibetan Buddhism is a combination of these three. For the monks, the restrictions and regulations and rules that we have come from Hinayana and then the generation of enlightenment thought comes from Mahayana and then to do these practices through the Vajrayana skill is three different things put together. And they don't contradict each other? No.