From: Tyagi@cup.portal.com (Tyagi Mordred Nagasiva)
Subject: Re: Who Am Us, Anyway?
Date: Sat, 14 May 94 13:09:52 PDT


|What do you think your *relevant* social
|experiences were--with the school system, and the class system?

I'm going to take this as a general question related to my experiences
in School and Society that have impacted me very deeply.


School:

1
Being on stage, 1st grade, 'Skinny Santa' in 'Rudolph the Red-nosed Reindeer'.
I had one real line that I remember ("Mrs. Claus: Eat Santa!  Eat!  Who wants
a skinny Santa?"  Me: "Nag, nag, nag....").  Many in the audience laughted.
Unknown to them I was scared shitless and didn't understand they weren't
laughing *at* me.  I was then told to do the line again because some of the
people in the audience hadn't heard.  I didn't project too well, I guess,
with that ball of concret in my throat.  I don't remember repeating it, but
I know I did.  Exhilirating experience.  Taught me a healthy fear of being
on stage, performance.

2
Being given 'advice' by my father prior to campaigning for president
of the 3rd grade class, having him write my campaign speech, loaded
with very embarrassing references to what I would 'give to each member
of the class that voted for me' (as I remember it was "a popsickle in
every pocket").  I was laughed at and not taken seriously.  Again I
felt they laughed *at* me and would never forget this experience.

3
Being forced to give speeches all through school.  I've always had a
fear of standing before crowds of people, and of performance, perhaps
as a result of my humiliating experiences while young (above).  I was,
however, more afraid of disappointing my teachers and parents by failing
due to my fear.  I did not feel I had a choice in the matter.  Every time
I gave the speeches I felt violated, my rage suppressed.

4
'Failing' in College.  It wasn't that bad, but when I couldn't master
certain subjects and skills I was thrown against my image of myself
and the emotional problems I was having at the time (which I describe
as 'attempting to emerge from my mother's womb') were inflamed to such
an extent that I considered and took some steps toward suicide.  Never
again did I consider 'finishing' college-work.  I was to see it as a
place which I might consult in my individual studies, and later, when
I came to think of the place as generally filled with students who
wanted credits and profs who had abandoned their lifework, I left it
completely.


Society:

Church.  Mostly I've been preached at, told what to do and what not
to do, dictated to rather than spoken with.  Organized Christianity,
from its preachers to its adherents, has made one hell of an enemy in
me, though since I found some people who were what I considered to be
'true Christians', and my studies have shown me that there is such a
fabulous core to it that I can today identify as Christian without
hesitation.  This was the only religious experience I had with the
surrounding culture until I actively sought contacts with other paths.


Government (Fed/State/Local).  My relationship has been mixed here,
coming to resolution through close brushes and associations with the
'law'.  I was taught that politicians are crooks and the police are
here to help us.  I had a couple incidents with local police which
led me to believe that they were rude but fair, instilling fear rather
than taking the time to work things out in a more difficult manner.

When I was legally married I got to now my wife's father, who was very
involved in the local police.  He is/was troubled, though a very kind
and honest man.  I learned to see the police as human.  Since taking
up employment as a security guard, I've come to see that people generally
have a lot of pain about 'authority figures', and those in uniform get
to receive the brunt of it.  I have a new respect for authority on the
whole.

My relationship with psychoactive substances has led me to feel that
majority rule is disempowering and, especially if not founded upon real
education (rather than indoctrination, which is currently happening),
dangerous.  People are largely ignorant about various substances and
mindstates, believing propaganda that the US govt allows to continue
in order to ease its law-enforcement.  I respect the US govt greatly,
and think that it is misguided or overburdened as it allows people to
remain deluded and self-disempowering so that it can rule them with less
effort.


Social Orgs:
 
I've avoided them on the whole.  Each time I got involved with one I found
cliques which excluded me and I didn't enjoy being shut out.  Those orgs
which did accept me did so conditionally and required that I begin to
give up my thoughts and behaviors which I cherished.  It enforced this
through social pressure and often the goals were not stated ahead of time.

Mystical/Magical Orgs specifically.  Almost every mystical group required 
that I shut down my mind and adopt behaviors of the sheep in order to be
accepted.  This is probably the case because I was looking at the religious
mystics - that which had originated in religious traditions (Krishnas,
Vedanta, Zen Buddhism, even Quakers to some extent).  I never felt like I
could be myself because my self was simply to bizarre for those whom I was
meeting.  I wanted to explore every corner of thought, adopt strange and
imaginative appearance.  These groups were typically ascetic and generally
formulaic.

Of the magical groups, the Masonic in character seemed to be populated by
elitists, dogmatists, fools and those who were so far out on their path
that I couldn't connect with them.  Mine is more shamanic in nature, arising
from my heard rather than my head (which is why I have troubles when Colin
asks me what I 'do'.  I abandoned my only contact with Masonic things
(OTO) and looked in Wicca.  There I found lovely people, often cliquish
and short-sighted, yet well-meaning on the whole.

Specific events of import.  Engaging a multitude of group rites, ceremonial
on the whole, with smatterings of free-formedness.  In most of them I felt
restricted to particular behavior-styles and an emphasis on performance
which challenged me severely.  I've worked through some of this and feel
as if I have come a long way (last night I did a rite with a number of people
whom I'd never met and expressed myself feeling less 'on stage' than I ever
have.  Part of the problem with the performance thing is that it takes me
out of the experience I wish to have (and do when I'm alone).

Circle Network News (circa 1987).  Wanted to discuss Satanism as a serious
topic of study in their PSA (contributors group/alliance).  They removed
me from the list and asked me to explain my listing with 'Satanism'.  I
explained via phone that I thought it was important to discuss within
the Neopagan community.  I was told it would not be allowed at present
because of all the heat they were enduring from their local community.  I
was dissappointed but understood.  They dropped me from the subscription
list and contributors circle, even after I'd agreed not to be listed with
that interest.  Angered, I let my relationship with them lapse.

OTO.  Original pre-arranged Minerval rite.   I travelled for 4 hours to a
place I'd been to before, having been told that I would be initiated.
I'd prepared myself well, given that this would be my first and possibly
only formal initiation into an established magical group.  Upon arrival
I was told that the proper paperwork had not been filled out and that I
would not be able to proceed.  The initiator had not informed me of this,
and when I arrived, she never even come forth and spoke to me about it.
I felt betrayed and angered.  It was one of my first glimpses into the
problems of my Order.  I was so angry I refused to stay longer and trekked
4 hours home, wondering to Kali that She tested me so.

OTO. Minerval rite.  My initiator got into conflicts with some of those
who attended.  Rather than resolve this with her at that time, the
Officers of the Order body chose to simply go over her head and complain,
getting her rite to initiate stripped from her.  She and I had been fairly
close, and so this felt underhanded to me.  I'm only now coming to realize
some of the wisdom of their actions.

OTO.  First Degree rite.  I had been assured that there were no oaths
within the rite which would necessarily bind my will in any way.  I don't
know what the motive of the Officers (same ones) were in assuring me of
this, or whether there was some misunderstanding.  In any case the rite
was not only difficult due to its content but also because I felt as
through I had been deceived by my initiators.  I was angry and resolved
to break connections with them in an honorable manner, even while at the
time feeling I could continue with the rite.  I'm glad I did.

OTO. Online.  Consistently I've met people who are presumably in the Order
that tell me that the Order has me bound to secrecy, that the oaths can
only be interpreted certain ways, and that we are all forced by 'the bonds
of the Order' into silence.  Disgusted, I've pressed the issue to the
highest echelon of the Order to secure confirmation that this is false or
inspire me to resign from membership.  I'm happy to note that I'm still
part of the org, though still frustrated by the attitude (and what I'd
call a lack of insight) by many of my kin in the Order.

Online groups.  ARCANA.  Tossed out after having rules made *around* me.
Personality conflict.  Political thrashing.  I survived it but don't
respect the list-owners very much (certain exceptions of late).  DivWeb.
We've wrangled with one another over politics and have, all-in-all, done
very well to clear up misunderstandings and work as a group dedicated to
networking and experiment.  I've taken up a study of online politics as
result.  Very interesting.  Alt.magick.  I enjoy my interaction here,
and am learning how to deal with flames and out-an-out assaults.  Mostly
I just bypass or side-step.  I feel accepted as a sort of odd-ball.


|Do you think self-identified "mystics" tend to have different
|experiences with society?

Than 'mages'?  Yes.  I think they probably have less pain about being
violated by organized social groups.  At least the 'traditional mystics'
are this way.  Those who identify as 'magicians' within organized social
trads are about the same as the traditional mystics from what I can see.
What I'm meaning here, however, is to distinguish the 'mages', usually
loners, from the mystics, who are members of an organization.


|David McIrvine

Thanks for this question.  I needed to reflect upon it once more.
going it publically may give people some insight into why I am
the way I am in alt.magick.


Tyagi