BBS MESSAGES/CROWLEY & WICCA From: Thomas A. McGovern To: All Oct-17-92 21:37 PM Subject: Question Can any one tell me what Crowleys involvement was in the Wicca movement if at all. --- Maximus 2.01wb * Origin: Inner Space (1:102/747) XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX From: Richard Kaczynski To: Thomas A. McGovern Oct-20-92 18:35 PM Subject: Question TAM> Can any one tell me what Crowley's involvement was in the Wicca movement if any at all. RK> Since the 1920s, there had been an upsurge of interest in "the old religion" in England due to the publications of Leland's _Aradia_, Murray's _The Witch Cult in Central Europe_ and Graves' _The White Goddess_. However--possibly owing to the fact that witchcraft was illegal in England until the 1950s--no one publicly talked about practicing it until Gerald Gardner published his novel _High Magic's Aid_ in 1948, reputedly based on a practicing, modern-day coven. Two years earlier, met Aleister Crowley through Arnold Crowther. Gardner & Crowley continued to meet, and Crowley admitted Gardner into the O.T.O. under the magical name Scire. Gardner reached the VII degree, was chartered to operate a lodge, and was the O.T.O.'s ranking member in England (next to Crowley). Gardner's nom de plume on _High Magick's Aid_ is Scire...his O.T.O. motto. He also appends 4=7 to this; although that's a Golden Dawn/A.A. designation, it may be a blind, the 7 referring to his grade in the O.T.O. Yorke and, I believe, Louis Wilkinson both attested to the fact that Gardner paid Crowley to write his Book of Shadows. Clearly, the language of the first draft of this document is Thelemic: Even Doreen Valiente, one of Gardner's oldest students, admits this. Gardner himself virtually admits this in print. The Charge of the Goddess, in particular, has portions which paraphrase _The Book of the Law_. One other interesting piece of the puzzle is that one of Crowley's American students, Jack Parsons, wrote at this time about "the revival of witchcraft," suggesting he may have been in on what was brewing with Crowley and Gardner. So, the long and short of it is this: The original Gardnerian Book of Shadows was steeped heavily in Thelema, having been penned by Crowley. Since Gardner has been described as being single-handedly responsible for the modern witchcraft revival, it's fair to say that Crowley shared this responsibility. Origin: The MAGIC Bus - Royal Oak MI - 3135443653 - (93:9000/4) XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX From: Grendel To: All Oct-22-92 00:41 AM Subject: Re: Question * Forwarded from "Wicca * Originally by Paul Hume * Originally to Thomas A. Mcgovern * Originally dated 20 Oct 1992, 9:16 Thomas - I am sure many people, both Thelemites and Wiccans, would prefer "no more" on this old issue as well (sorry, couldn't resist). Very little fact, lots and lots of fable on the Crowley/Wicca connection. fact: Gardner met Crowley, and received the IVth degree initiation in eh the OTO (though such inits, at the time, were "honorary" as often as not - ie. requiring neither ritual nor regimen). Some sources indicate Gardner paid lots of money for the degree, others make no mention of money, so go figure. fact: in tandem with this, Crowley issued a charter to Gardner to run an OTO Camp in the "Man of Earth," ie. lower level, degrees. Not to denigrate Camp or their Masters (I am one myself (g)), this is not exactly an intimate or awe-inspiring level of prestige within the Order. fact: Doreen Valiente identified numerous segments cribbed from Crowley's published works in Gardner's original BoS. She excised the ones she didn't like, and cribbed a moderate amount herself in rewriting the Gardnerian material. I think we've run out of facts... fable: Crowley was a member of the New Forest coven (ie. the same trad that Gardner claimed as his ancestry, and the home of "Old Dorothy." The villainous AC was eventually, of course, kicked out. Given that we have a fairly complete record of AC's magical career, from his own writings and biographical researches, and given his penchant for damning and blasting any group, order, or individual who ever cut him off, it seems unlikely that no such incident is reported anywhere. fable: Crowley wrote the Gardnerian BoS on commission from Gardner. Apart from the cribbing (a fairly universal trait among occultists), the style is wrong, the source material in Gardner's hands was (per Valiente) obviously put together over time, by many different hands, etc. It would be very tacky of me to say that had AC written the rites, the poesy would be better, too, so of course I won't say that (g). (Unless he went on one of his Swinburnian kicks, in which case...oh, never mind....) There are some other oddities in the lineup (Sybil Leek spoke of Crowley, but in her telling, leaving aside questions of verification of her statements, they spoke as magicians, not as co-religionists. For my money, this whole thing probably started in the late '60's, when some Thelemite wanted to piss off a Wiccan, either out of malice or as a joke, and injected the "urban myth" that Crowley was in on the foundation of Wicca into the Neopagan subculture that was aborning at the time. Like many such stories, it took on a life of its own and remains with us to this day. 93. Paul Origin: -= The Sacred Grove =- Seattle, WA V.32 (206)634-1980 XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX From: Richard Kaczynski To: Grendel Oct-23-92 18:53 PM Subject: Question I think we agree on the facts about Gardner and Crowley, although we differ in how far we extend their implications. First of all, I didn't mean to imply that Crowley wrote the ENTIRE BoS. To do so would be an injustice to both Gerald Gardner and Doreen Valiente, who agonized over its various revisions. (I am, alas, a victim of the "post it, go to work, and proofread later" handicap here :-) ...) I DO, however, believe the evidence suggests that Crowley had input on the Gardnerian BoS. I'll once again briefly detail the facts now that I've had the opportunity to look them up: A. Crowley met Gardner on May 1, 1947 (not 1946, as I originally estimated). Subsequent meetings occurred on May 7, 14 and 27. At this time, Crowley was very ill and his diaries are spotty at best: The nature of their meetings are not indicated; there may have been others. NOWHERE do the diaries state that Gardner paid Crowley any money to write any BoS. Crowley died six months after they met. B. Crowley certified Gardner as a IV degree member of the O.T.O., and chartered him to operate a lodge and initiate in the first three degrees. On June 14, 1947, Gerald Gardner wrote to Crowley, enclosing his 10/10 (shillings/pence) payment for his O.T.O. dues up to the VII degree and mentioning a query he'd received for the fee schedule for advanced degrees. C. In January, 1950, Gardner wrote to John Symonds that only illness prevented him from starting an OTO Lodge; that Crowley's successor, Karl Germer, acknowledged him as head of the Order in Europe; and that Crowley, prior to his death, read part of High Magic's Aid and highly approved. "He (Crowley) wanted me to put the witch part in full, but I was only given permission to publish things as fiction." Gardner says he included the 3rd degree ritual, but it was excised from the MS. [I also have copies of Germer's letters on this score.] Therefore, before Crowley's death, SOMEONE had written the Gardnerian rituals, of which A.C. approved (although they've undoubtedly been revised over the years). This book Gardner published under his O.T.O. motto, Scire. D. The story that Gardner hired Crowley to write the BoS originated with Gerald Yorke (a not-infallible source, but one who studied under A.C. and devoted his life to preserving his papers) and Louis Wilkinson (Crowley's best friend, and a member of the A.'.A.'. as Per Terra Ad Astra); Francis King spread their story in the 1970s. While Yorke and Wilkinson are have no printed documents to support these allegations (at least not that I've seen), they WERE alive and knew Crowley at the time...so their contentions as contemporary witnesses bears some weight. E. Valiente, in _Rebirth of Witchcraft_, cites parallels between the Charge of the Goddess and The Book of the Law; traces "perfect love and perfect trust" to Crowley's essay "The Revival of Magick" from The International; and says the "athame in chalice" metaphor for the Great Rite is based on the OTO's VI degree ritual. Others have pointed to the three degrees of Wicca and the three "Man of Earth" degrees that Gardner was chartered to work as a further parallel. F. Crowley's high-ranking O.T.O. officers on two continents wrote of a revival of the "witch cult": Jack Parsons, Agape Lodgemaster in Pasadena, CA, and Gerald Gardner, in England. G. In "Witchcraft Today" (p 96-97), Gardner writes: "The great question which people ask is: 'How do you know the cult is old?'...The only man I can think of who could have invented the rites was the late Aleister Crowley...There are indeed certain expressions and certain words which smack of Crowley." Is Gardner tipping his hand? Based on these facts, what can we conclude: That Gardner knew Crowley, joined the O.T.O., and brought parts of the Thelemic/ceremonial magic corpus into his BoS? Certainly. That Crowley gave Gardner input and even helped write parts of the BoS? Probably (which is where I stand). That Crowley made up the whole bloody thing and sold it to Gardner to spring on an unsuspecting public? Doubtful. I look at it this way: When scientists do hypothesis testing, they set a margin for error with which they are comfortable. Typically, anything with a chance of error less than 5% is taken as a significant deviation from chance. This threshold may be raised or lowered based upon the seriousness of a Type I or Type II error. If the cost of a wrong decision is high (such as releasing a new drug which may have harmful side effects), then that threshold may be lowered to a 1 in a 100 chance or lower. In cases where a wrong decision has a low cost, then the threshold may be raised. In the Gardner/Crowley debate, very little harm could result were we to extend a little more credit where, perhaps, none is deserved...especially when compared to the alternative: ignoring a heritage which, I feel, adds more depth and credibility to the Gardnerian Wicca movement. The evidence, for me, is enough to conclude that Crowley had some creative input on Gardner's BoS. [Even if your margin for error doesn't permit this supposition, there's no denying that Gardner drew upon the Crowley/Golden Dawn corpus for inspiration.] And what's wrong with that? Gardner owes some debt to Crowley for material he adapted, just as Crowley owes a debt to Sam Mathers and John Yarker. And thus we have a link to the mystery schools, the Freemasons and Rosicrucians...and hence, a tradition. Much better than the deus ex machina alternative: That a retired but motivated Englishman invented the whole thing himself in the mid 1950s. Wassail, Richard Origin: The MAGIC Bus - Royal Oak MI - 3135443653 - (1:120/418)