[Message Area] : Pagan_Echo
Message Number: [1121]    
From: Ammond Shadowcraft                 Date: 04-03-90
To:   Robin Hood                         Time: 11:18
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC 
SeeAalso: 1168
In a message to Edwin Diaz <03-31-90 11:57> Robin Hood wrote:
RH><So just what do you think is the difference between black
RH><and white magic. So far all I have seen is that practicers
RH><of "black" magic are willing to violate that most basic law
RH><harm none.  The law of three fold return always catches up
RH><with them.

        Starhawk quoted a friend as saying... "White magic is poetry, black 
magic is anything that works."
        Our sometimes participant Issac Bonewits tells us that black and 
white are distinctions that aren't useful. Perhaps Issac might share with us 
his thoughts (for those that haven't read his book REAL MAGIC.
        Anton LaVey tells us that anyone who uses magic is a black 
magician. The only reason to use magic is to accomplish some personal gain 
or get some personal power. Other excuses are hypocritical.
        Further LaVey says that so-called white magicians are really 
Christians in disguise. They haven't shed their Christian morals yet. And 
anyone who uses these weak morals (ethics?) to control their power generates 
very little power.  
--- QuickBBS 2.64 (Eval)

 * Origin: THE CRYSTAL CAVE, "DER MAGICK TREFFPUNKT"(719 391-1092 (1:128/50)
Message Number: [1127]    
From: Bart Lidofsky                      Date: 04-05-90
To:   Edwin Diaz                         Time: 09:56
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC
SeeAalso: 1335
 ED> I've practiced white and black magic on and off for years
 ED> I just really learning so i really need someone who really knows
 ED> his stuff""
    The fact that you even refer to "black" and "white" magick shows
that you are just really learning.  There is no more "black" and "white"
magick than there is "black" and "white" electronics.  Magick is a tool
which can be used for good, for evil, or for neither.  Since it involves
a subjective rather than objective view of the universe, self-knowledge
is key to the practice of magick.  Anybody who considers themselves to
be "white" or "black" is deluding him or herself, and therefore placing
a block of their own making into their studies.  Sort of the equivalent
of learning to play tennis without a ball.
    Bart
--- via Silver Xpress V2.20
 * Origin: Opera=Deorum: Home of Baphonet-by-the-Sea

Message Number: [1166]    
From: Mike Nichols                       Date: 04-05-90
To:   All                                Time: 00:02
Subject: healing
SeeAalso: 1221
BULLETIN
========
I just found out tonite that Scott Cunningham, author of numerous books 
on herbalism, magick, and Wicca, is now in the hospital with spinal 
menengitis (sp?).  For those of you who wish to light candles, invoke 
healings, etc., I'm sure your caring will be much appreciated.
--Mike Nichols
Magick Lantern BBS
Kansas City MO
816/523-1557
PS -- Please pass this msg along, and let me know if anyone plans to 
organize any coordinated efforts.  Thanks!
--- QuickBBS 2.64 (Eval)
 * Origin: G.O.D./D.E.S.S. Kansas City's Neo-Pagan BBS (1:280/311)

Message Number: [1167]    
From: Artemis Lupa                       Date: 04-04-90
To:   Sysop Jack&jill                    Time: 16:20
Subject: Re: OF INTEREST

MSGID: 1:280/901 420fffd8
 > From: PAUL HUME
 >   To: MOON PUPPY
 > Subj: REPLY TO MSG# 59483 (RE: STILL SEX QUESTIONS)

 > I cannot speak for Wiccan practice, nor is there
 > concensus within that religion as to who can do what
 > to whom in the Great Rite.  Some covens seem to
 > believe gays cannot represent the sexual polarity equally.  I Etc.

This is a facinating question to me.  I have gay friends of 
both genders as well as my hetero friends.  All seem to be 
well balanced and adjusted human beings as well as good 
pagans and magicians.  That would seem to me to be all that 
is required to do almost any ritual or rite.
In some creation myths, the Goddess created Her Consort from 
Herself by dividing Herself into darkness and light.  From 
their reunion, all things were born.  This implies the ability 
of we who would emulate the Goddess to separate ourselves 
into the the parts that we are and, by reuniting them, give 
birth to new things.
We are all the product of both male and female and should 
have the ability to contact the feminine or the masculine 
within ourselves.
Nevertheless,  even among gays, the polarity of gender in 
fact (not just in ritual), is important for drawing on the 
archetypal imagery -- mother, grandmother, sister, father, grandfather,brother.
If it is sexual energy you seek, select the gender that does 
it for you ... but if you're after Mom, only a lady will do. 
If you're symbolically representing the generative forces of 
nature and everybody in the circle is of one gender, I'd say punt.
--- FD 1.99c
 * Origin: The Wolf's Den in Kansas City (1:280/901)

Message Number: [1168]    
From: Artemis Lupa                       Date: 04-04-90
To:   Ammond Shadowcraft                 Time: 16:41
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC 
Previous Reply: 1121
SeeAalso: 1222

MSGID: 1:280/901 42105b62
 >         Starhawk quoted a friend as saying... "White
 > magic is poetry, black magic is anything that works."
 >         Anton LaVey tells us that anyone who uses
 > magic is a black magician. The only reason to use
 > magic is to accomplish some personal gain or get some
 > personal power. Other excuses are hypocritical.
 >         Further LaVey says that so-called white
 > magicians are really Christians in disguise. They
 > haven't shed their Christian morals yet. And anyone
 > who uses these weak morals (ethics?) to control their
 > power generates very little power.

So what is magic?  Some consider it to be anything that has 
an effect on the flow of the universe, from grand ceremony 
to wishing on a star.
By LaVey's definition everyone would be a black magician and 
that's not a useful definition, either.
Sorry I cut out Isaac's quote, by he's probably right in 
that the terms black and white aren't much use.  Every 
religion has a way to persuade it's gods -- prayer, 
sacrifice, threats, etc.  But also, nearly every religion 
has a means of determining the will of god so the requests 
won't be against the flow of the universe or in opposition 
to the will of god or not in the best interests of the 
petitioners.

My personal definition of Black Magic would probably be that 
it is any act that goes mightily against the grain of the 
natural order and therefore probably requires huge amounts 
of energy and resources that would probably be better spent 
figuring out where you should have gone in the first place. 
It generally makes you feel really powerful (rather like 
feeling the heat generated by an electric current that isn't 
flowing freely), and pretty much keeps your life trashed.
In the best of all possible worlds, we would all be so in 
tune with life, the universe and everthing that we wouln't 
need magic.  (Apologies to Douglas Adams.)
--- FD 1.99c
* Origin: The Wolf's Den in Kansas City (1:280/901)

Message Number: [1221]    
From: Russ Anderson                      Date: 04-05-90
To:   Mike Nichols                       Time: 00:02
Subject: healing
Previous Reply: 1166

EID:bffa 14850040
 MN+> I just found out tonite that Scott Cunningham, author of numerous 
 MN+> books on herbalism, magick, and Wicca, is now in the hospital with 
 MN+> spinal menengitis (sp?).  For those of you who wish to light candles, 
 MN+> invoke healings, etc., I'm sure your caring will be much appreciated.
 Where is he? (What hospital, and what city?)
 B*B
 Dragonfriend (Russ)
--- ZMailO 1.10 - Gamma X
 * Origin: Dragonfriend's Point (1:104/11.5)
Message Number: [1222]    
From: Jonathan Hutchins                  Date: 04-05-90
To:   Robin Hood                         Time: 14:41
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC 
Previous Reply: 1168
SeeAalso: 1223

MSGID: 1:280/901 428e90c6
 > So just what do you think is the difference between
 > black and white magic. So far all I have seen is that
 > practicers of "black" magic are willing to violate
 > that most basic law harm none.  The law of three fold
 > return always catches up with them.
 > so what do you think makes black magic distinct from
 > white?  The above?  I am kind of curious.  I am a
 > practicing witch of five years now.  I would warn you
 > away from destructive magic, it will only cause you
 > harm.
"Black Magic" is a slippery term.  We have for years been
plagued with rumorous accusations against various unpopular 
people in the local community: "Don't go near them, they do 
Black Magic!".  Always a lie for the sake of politics.
But given that I've been pretty well surrounded in recent 
years by the popular Wiccan heebie-jeebies regarding the 
term; I quite surprised myself last night by using it in a 
very nutral sense.  I found myself quickly back tracking to 
explain:

Black Magic can also be used to distinguish those non-evil, 
non-negative aspects of dealing with Spirits, Summoning, The 
Dead, and also to those functions from more formal and 
dangerous times which involved the dicipline of indiscreet 
coveners.  These areas are commonly referred to as "dark" or 
"black" for their danger and solemnity, rather than as a 
value judgement.
However, given the current climate being so favorable to 
people flying off the handle at any red-flag-word, 
perhaps it is best to use such terms only under the most 
discrete circumstances....
--- FD 1.99c
 * Origin: The Wolf's Den in Kansas City (1:280/901)

Message Number: [1223]    
From: Jonathan Hutchins                  Date: 04-05-90
To:   Ammond Shadowcraft                 Time: 14:46
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC 
Previous Reply: 1222
SeeAalso: 1225

MSGID: 1:280/901 428eb965
 >         Further LaVey says that so-called white
 > magicians are really Christians in disguise. They
 > haven't shed their Christian morals yet. And anyone
 > who uses these weak morals (ethics?) to control their
 > power generates very little power.
Mr. LaVey's world view has been edited so that his own
works and opinions might seem more consistant.
Within the Christian magical traditions (yes, Virginia, they 
exist), the distinction is that White Magic works _with_ the 
will of God, calling on him, and / or his angels to perform 
the actual magic.  Black Magic goes against the Will, and / 
or calls on Demons, the Devil, Spirits of the Dead, or the 
power within the Magician himself.
--- FD 1.99c
 Origin: The Wolf's Den in Kansas City (1:280/901)

Message Number: [1224]    
From: Russ Anderson                      Date: 04-07-90
To:   all                                Time: 16:42
Subject: Dragonfest

EID:68af 14878540
 The following message is the official announcement of Dragonfest '90. It is 
presented here as your official invitation. 
 I've agreed to act as liason between the committee and the network. If you 
wish me to pass information back to the committee, I can be reached by netmail at 104/11. 
B*B
Dragonfriend (Russ)
                Dragonfest 1990 Announcement

Since the full moon in August is early this year, the Festival will be
August 2 - August 6, and therefore the theme will be:
    Lughnasadh - Sacrificing for Renewal
The theme will be addressed on many levels:
 Personal - what will I let go of to make room for what I want?
 Community - what can we do without to have security and trust?
 Humanity - what must we release to feel like one family?
 Planet Earth - how much inconvenience will we accept to take care of our home?
If you are interested in leading a workshop, plan it now and contact us soon.
There will be several changes you may need to be aware of:
 * A price increase - we're growing up and need a bigger site, equipment,
   etc., all of which cost at least a little money
 * Assigned camping areas - to reduce overcrowding here and empty spaces
   there.  To be sure to camp together you must register together or both
   parties must request it.
 * Smaller and less central skyclad areas, to be filled on a first paid/
   first reserved basis.  This is for nudists, not observers.
 * A work requirement again.  The work must get done for us to have the
   wonderful Festival we all want, and working together is the best way
   in the world to make friends and feel part of things.
 * A parental work requirement - for every child (age 2+) who attends,
   a parent or other adult must spend at least 2 hours staffing the 
   Children's Festival.

What will not change: our religious focus, fellowship (the Community 
Center will be back), music, rituals, workshops, dancing, drumming,
and the change to devote 4 whole days - noon Thursday to noon Monday -
to sharing our spiritual paths with each other and our gods.
Save your pennies to register early, as we expect to fill up ahead of time!
Registration packets will be mailed by Beltane.  If you receive a printed
copy of this announcement in the next week or two you are already on our
mailing list and will automatically receive registration information.
Otherwise you can contact Russ to be put on the mailing list, or write to:
      Dragonfest of Colorado, Inc, PO Box 6927, Denver CO 80206

Note to network participants:
Russ Anderson is the official Magicknet online information source and liaison 
for Dragonfest.  (Also Rumor Control).  Check with him with any questions - 
he can refer them to the committee for official answers.  
Also, this year's site is not public information; if you register and
receive a map packet, please do not discuss on Magicknet anything about 
the location other than it being in the Colorado mountains.  Ask via 
netmail if you have any questions.
--- ZMailO 1.10 - Gamma X
 * Origin: Dragonfriend's Point (1:104/11.5)

Message Number: [1225]    
From: Ammond Shadowcraft                 Date: 04-07-90
To:   Artemis Lupa                       Time: 11:04
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC 
Previous Reply: 1223
SeeAalso: 1227

In a message to Ammond Shadowcraft <04-04-90 16:41> Artemis Lupa wrote:
AL><So what is magic?  Some consider it to be anything that has
AL><an effect on the flow of the universe, from grand ceremony
AL><to wishing on a star.
        Magick is affecting change in non-ordinary ways. To me white magick 
is more cosmic foo-foo than anything else.
AL><Sorry I cut out Isaac's quote, by he's probably right in
AL><that the terms black and white aren't much use.  Every
AL><religion has a way to persuade it's gods -- prayer,
AL><sacrifice, threats, etc.  But also, nearly every religion
AL><has a means of determining the will of god so the requests
AL><won't be against the flow of the universe or in opposition
AL><to the will of god or not in the best interests of the
AL><petitioners.

        Would you then agree that petition and prayer are based upon 
ignorance of human reality? If we invent the Gods then they are our 
highest hopes and aspirations for ourseslves. They are generally what we 
secretly and unconsciously want to become. If so, then what good is prayer 
and petition to oneself? Why not just do what we want? Even if we overlay 
these hopes upon a space-borne energyform, calling it God, we are 
still projecting upon that entity our hopes and aspirations. To me such is a 
superstitious religious action.

        The same goes for earth-borne Nature deities.

AL><My personal definition of Black Magic would probably be
AL><that it is any act that goes mightily against the grain of
AL><the natural order and therefore probably requires huge
AL><amounts of energy and resources that would probably be
AL><better spent figuring out where you should have gone in the
AL><first place. It generally makes you feel really powerful
AL><(rather like feeling the heat generated by an electric

        That depends upon the individual's maturity. I disagree that black 
magick requires great amounts of energy. How much energy does it take to 
stick out your foot, tripping an adversary so that they break an arm? How 
much more in a ceremonional working for the same? To me what it requires is 
an emotional commitment to the action till it's done. I partially agree with 
LaVey when he says that white magick is disguised Christian morality. Those 
who haven't tossed their Christian baggage would do well to practice white 
magick. Guilt is the device that turns magickal working upon the worker. 
(It's obvious I don't subscribe to a belief in karma.) Guilt is the basis of 
Christian baggage.

AL><In the best of all possible worlds, we would all be so in
AL><tune with life, the universe and everthing that we wouln't
AL><need magic.  (Apologies to Douglas Adams.)

        Agreed. Then why not get on with life? Why worry ourselfs about 
white and black distincitions when better life awaits us (if we just turn on 
our brain).  
--- QuickBBS 2.64 (Eval)
 * Origin: THE CRYSTAL CAVE, "DER MAGICK TREFFPUNKT"(719 391-1092 (1:128/50)

Message Number: [1226]    
From: Gerald Bliss                       Date: 04-07-90
To:   Dawnie Niszsa                      Time: 20:10
Subject: Re: THE WICCAN READ
In a message to Gerald Bliss <03-30-90 19:03> Dawnie Niszsa wrote:
DN><Would you be interested in using some Ar nDraiocht Fein
DN><material for Wiccan Read ? Stuff by
DN>< Isaac Bonewits is relatively cheap. Other of our authors
DN><are available for free (i.e. myself).
DN><.
I am interested in ANYTHING.  Especially in the free category.  Please send 
something, and we'll do our best to make it see print or we'll tell you why.  
--- QuickBBS 2.64 (Eval)
 * Origin: THE CRYSTAL CAVE, "DER MAGICK TREFFPUNKT"(719 391-1092 (1:128/50)

Message Number: [1227]    
From: Ammond Shadowcraft                 Date: 04-07-90
To:   Jonathan Hutchins                  Time: 22:00
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC 
Previous Reply: 1225
SeeAalso: 1237
In a message to Ammond Shadowcraft <04-05-90 14:46> Jonathan Hutchins wrote:
JH><Mr. LaVey's world view has been edited so that his own
JH><works and opinions might seem more consistant.

        Ok, who edited them and why?  
--- QuickBBS 2.64 (Eval)
 * Origin: THE CRYSTAL CAVE, "DER MAGICK TREFFPUNKT"(719 391-1092 (1:128/50)

Message Number: [1237]    
From: Edwin Diaz                         Date: 04-09-90
To:   Robin Hood                         Time: 11:11
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC 
Previous Reply: 1227
SeeAalso: 1238

there is a definite differnce between balck and white magic!!
with black magic you're dealing with dark forces and perhaps 
with Satan himself so get your information right
--- TBBS v2.1/NM
 * Origin: The INFERNO <*>Home of the PAGAN Echo<*> 609-886-6818 (266/72)

Message Number: [1238]    
From: Edwin Diaz                         Date: 04-09-90
To:   Silver Claw                        Time: 11:13
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC 
Previous Reply: 1237
SeeAalso: 1265

You are very wrong!! I have enemies that are using black magic against 
me and my lover. Sometimes You have to fight fire with fire if you 
have knowledge please I would be most interested to know
--- TBBS v2.1/NM
 * Origin: The INFERNO <*>Home of the PAGAN Echo<*> 609-886-6818 (266/72)

Message Number: [1265]    
From: Jonathan Hutchins                  Date: 04-10-90
To:   Ammond Shadowcraft                 Time: 11:20
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC 
Previous Reply: 1238
SeeAalso: 1303

MSGID: 1:280/901 450b556d

 > JH><Mr. LaVey's world view has been edited so that his own
 > JH><works and opinions might seem more consistant.

 >         Ok, who edited them and why?

Is this a trick question?
He did, for the reason stated.
--- FD 1.99c
 * Origin: The Wolf's Den in Kansas City (1:280/901)

Message Number: [1303]    
From: Paul Seymour                       Date: 04-11-90
To:   Edwin Diaz                         Time: 23:11
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC 
Previous Reply: 1265
SeeAalso: 1304
in a message to Robin Hood <04-09-90 11:11> Edwin Diaz wrote:
 > there is a definite differnce between balck and white magic!!
 > with black magic you're dealing with dark forces and perhaps
 > with Satan himself so get your information right.
I would find it pretty hard to deal with Satan himself, since he is a
uniquely Judeao-Christian godform and has no existence for me, nor for any
of the Pagani I know.  The only "black" magick I know of is that which
violates the free will of another or causes them harm, and is self limiting
in the fact that it is very destructive for the practitioner.  I have
watched two "black" magicians destroy themselves, and a third well on the
way.
        Blessed Be   -Paul-  

--- QuickBBS v2.61 [EVALUATION]
 * Origin: The Mountain Oracle "Witches & Pagans & Druids.....Oh My!" (1:301/9.0
Message Number: [1304]    
From: Paul Seymour                       Date: 04-11-90
To:   Edwin Diaz                         Time: 23:16
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC 
Previous Reply: 1303
SeeAalso: 1305
In a message to Silver Claw <04-09-90 11:13> Edwin Diaz wrote:

 > You are very wrong!! I have enemies that are using black magic against
 > me and my lover. Sometimes You have to fight fire with fire if you
 > have knowledge please I would be most interested to know
Having been under similar attack, and surviving handily, I must say that it
is YOU who are wrong!  If you attempt to "fight fire with fire" and are
really under attack by someone who knows what they are doing, you will
simply play right into their hands and have lost before you begin!
        B*B  -Paul-  
--- QuickBBS v2.61 [EVALUATION]
 * Origin: The Mountain Oracle "Witches & Pagans & Druids.....Oh My!" (1:301/9.0
Message Number: [1305]    
From: Silver Claw                        Date: 04-11-90
To:   Edwin Diaz                         Time: 16:10
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC 
Previous Reply: 1304
SeeAalso: 1306
Try going on the DEFENSIVE instead of the OFFENSIVE.  In my opinion, if 
you keep "fighting fire with fire", everybody is going to get burned 
(but if you put on your fire proof suit....).
Anyways, I always think of magic as just magic with no "black" or 
"white".  Its just how its used that makes the difference.  

Oh well, its your choice.  If you choose to retaliate, make sure you 
take appropriate measures to protect yourself and don't let your fire 
get out of control.

--- QuickBBS 2.64 (Eval)
 * Origin: G.O.D./D.E.S.S. Kansas City's Neo-Pagan BBS (1:280/311)

Message Number: [1306]    
From: Amergin O'Kai                      Date: 04-11-90
To:   Edwin Diaz                         Time: 21:07
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC 
Previous Reply: 1305
SeeAalso: 1307

EID:d45e 148ba8e5

Dear Mr. Diaz, 
   Would you be so kind as to define "dark forces"?  The "straight 
information" which many of us have derived from personal experience 
contradicts the existence of "Satan himself", or at least such a being 
as is popularly defined.  There is a difference between black and white 
magyck only when you open the spectrum...  Personally, I prefer Magenta 
Magyck.
BB!

A-OK

--- Opus-CBCS 1.11
 * Origin: Dragonfriend's Place (1:104/11.0)

Message Number: [1307]    
From: J Golsan                           Date: 04-11-90
To:   Ammond Shadowcraft                 Time: 13:04
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC 
Previous Reply: 1306
SeeAalso: 1308
I'm beginning to believe (in my ever-increasingly enlightened state) that 
there are only apparent dichotomies.  There is no good-bad, black-white, etc. 
 That is illusion.  There is bad in good, and good in bad.  What is essential 
is to be in harmony with the universe.  The Universe is a "one" sort of 
thing--not two-sided.  There are no gods.  There are only gods.
--- TBBS v2.1/NM
 * Origin: Atlanta Connection - Home of PAGAN in Atlanta (133/205)

Message Number: [1308]    
From: Paul Seymour                       Date: 04-12-90
To:   Amergin O'Kai                      Time: 22:55
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC 
Previous Reply: 1307
SeeAalso: 1337
In a message to Edwin Diaz <04-11-90 21:07> Amergin O'Kai wrote:
 >  There is a difference between black and white magyck only
 > when you open the spectrum...  Personally, I prefer Magenta
 > Magyck.
 >  BB!

 >  A-OK
I strive for Yellow, but enough Red creeps in that mine is more af an Amber
flavor, Rarely a true orange.  If we keep this up, we'll have a whole
rainbow of magicians! <Grin!>  Seen any good Green or Brown work lately?
       B*B   -Paul-  
--- QuickBBS v2.61 [EVALUATION]
 * Origin: The Mountain Oracle "Witches & Pagans & Druids.....Oh My!" (1:301/9.0
Message Number: [1335]    

From: Aethelred Carlile                  Date: 04-12-90
To:   Bart Lidofsky                      Time: 19:16
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC
Previous Reply: 1127
SeeAalso: 1385
        Agreed. Magic is a technology and therefore neutral.
        However, unlike mundane technology, does not the end in some more 
direct way influence the means? A deer rifle will kill a man or deer without 
differentiation as to whether hate or hunger (or greed or vanity or...) is 
the motive.
        As a magician, I must admit myself to be a novice, but my motive 
seems to influence what I can do...
                        - AEthelred.  
--- QuickBBS 2.64 (Eval)
 * Origin: G.O.D./D.E.S.S. Kansas City's Neo-Pagan BBS (1:280/311)

Message Number: [1336]    
From: Phil Hansford                      Date: 04-12-90
To:   Edwin Diaz                         Time: 09:58
Subject: Re: Black Magic 
SeeAalso: 10097

EID:e0ac 148c4f40 158f 148959a0

MSGID: 1:102/943.0 624899e4
In a message of <09 Apr 1990 11:13>, Edwin Diaz (1:266/72) writes:

 ED> You are very wrong!! I have enemies that are using black magic 
 ED> against 
 ED> me and my lover. Sometimes You have to fight fire with fire if 
 ED> you 
 ED> have knowledge please I would be most interested to know
 ED> --- TBBS v2.1/NM
 ED>  * Origin: The INFERNO <*>Home of the PAGAN Echo<*> 609-886-6818 
 ED> (266/72)

You can protect yourself against 'psychic attack', whatever its form,
through some 'neutral' magick of your own...It is not necessary, nor
advisable to take the initiative in these matters.  Just set up a
sphere of protection around you.  You could visualize a white light
surrounding you and your premises, or use a more formal 'banishing
ritual', as you prefer.  Or visualize a 'psychic mirror' around you
which will *reflect back* any 'bad vibrations' while letting the
good ones through.  These techniques are not black magick.  You
don't need black magick...//Phil//

--- ZMailQ 1.10 @1:102/943.0
 * Origin: Mysteria - Tujunga, Ca 818-353-8891  (1:102/943)
message Number: [1337]    
From: Ammond Shadowcraft                 Date: 04-12-90
To:   Jonathan Hutchins                  Time: 14:28
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC 
Previous Reply: 1308
SeeAalso: 1345

Re: Is that a trick question?
        Isn't that the _right_ of every writer, or did I miss something 
along the way?  
--- QuickBBS 2.64 (Eval)
 * Origin: THE CRYSTAL CAVE, "DER MAGICK TREFFPUNKT"(719 391-1092 (1:128/50)

Message Number: [1345]    
From: Aethelred Carlile                  Date: 04-13-90
To:   J Golsan                           Time: 18:30
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC 
Previous Reply: 1337
SeeAalso: 1362

Dichotomy. Hmmm.
When people present me with a binary, either/or set up I find myself really 
uncomfortable, because just as a general rule I find that issues have not 
two, but six or more sides to 'em.
I periodicly wonder if the binary nature of the American two party system 
and adversarial legal system doesn't cause us to tend to stop looking for 
possible positions (or solutions) after discovering only two possibilities.
                                - AEthelred.  

--- QuickBBS 2.64 (Eval)
 * Origin: G.O.D./D.E.S.S. Kansas City's Neo-Pagan BBS (1:280/311)

Message Number: [1346]    
From: Robin Hood                         Date: 04-13-90
To:   Edwin Diaz                         Time: 20:53
Subject: BLACK MAGIC

Get real!  ---Dark powers?  Satan?---- What kind of crap have you been 
reading?  Or have you seen too many late movies?  Dark powers---Ha!
There is no dichotimy-- no dualism--  There is no clear division between 
good and evil.  And no spirits of evil, or good.  Just like there are no 
People of Evil, or People of Good.  There are Good people, and there are 
Harmful people, but all in all they blend together.
        What witches strive to do is harm none.  But whether you use your 
power for harm, or for good, the power is the same, it comes from the same 
place.  That same pool or energy.
        Yes you can create a malignant spirit,  You can worship some harmful 
spirit, or cast a harmful spell.  But the power is as you define it.  How 
you perceive it.  Magic molds itself to your symbol system.
      Was it you who said they were under attack, magically?  That Fight 
fire with fire stuff?  What a bunch of hooey.   And what a terrible mindtrap 
to be in.  Only in football is the best defense a strong offense.  Real 
strength lies in love and caring.  They are strong.  Hate is weak.  To put 
it in eastern terms.  Hate destroys your Ki.  It puts you off balance.  It 
makes you an easy target.  Take a clue from Aikido, it is the peaceful way 
that will bring you strength.  How can an enemy attack you when you are 
filled with this strength?  Learn Psychic Aikido, and let your positive 
emotions protect you.  Your assailant will run him/herself into the ground. 
Hatred, and harm are self defeating, and ultimately bring destruction. 
Destruction brings about destruction.  Let go of the psychic war bullshit, 
and start living your life in a positive way.
                        >---Robin--->

 p.s.  Satan... Ha!  Maybe it was Kali, or better yet Eris just keeping 
people on their toes.

p..p.s.  My magic usually is green.  I think I am pretty good at it.  I also 
am rather fond of orange and gold/amber.  Black and white are so 
unimaginative. :-)   Maybe we should start a club... the Chromatic Pagans. 
                                :-)  
--- QuickBBS 2.64 (Eval)
* Origin: G.O.D./D.E.S.S. Kansas City's Neo-Pagan BBS (1:280/311)

Message Number: [1348]    
From: Julie Rhodes                       Date: 04-13-90
To:   All                                Time: 22:37
Subject: GOOD LUCK REQUEST
I left this message also in the Magick Echo.  Anyway, I would like to make a request to anyone who believes they can help me.
Lately I've felt my life is under a curse.  last year I had a major operation that failed and caused me to become emotionally unstable.  My marriage almost ended during that time, and I spent most of our savings (some of which I have recovered).  We are back together and I hope for the best in that respect.  Our taxes are really high this year but that could happen to anyone.  However, yesterday I was suddenly fired, with no warning and with (I believe) no justification. My bosses would not even speak to me, they appeared to have so little respect for me after 8 months working for them.  You'd think they would have dumped me long before if it was really that bad.  Anyway, I'm now looking for a new job, so what I am asking is that anyone who can, please do a mantra or a chant or prayer to send a little good luck my way.  If you can give me a chant to say onmy own, that would be great too. I'm really going to try to find a job quickly but I feel like fighting this "curse" is getting to be too much, when every time I turn around something bad happens.  I've lost my faith in life.  So if you can help, thanks sincerely from my heart.
--- TBBS v2.1/NM
 * Origin: The INFERNO <*>Home of the PAGAN Echo<*> 609-886-6818 (266/72)

Message Number: [1362]    
From: Glenn Laws                         Date: 04-14-90
To:   Paul Seymour                       Time: 14:03
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC 
Previous Reply: 1345
SeeAalso: 1363
I personally prefer Green.  Actaully, though, green is not one of my
 favorite colors, I do most of my visualizations with Green, maybe with a tint, in one direction, towards yellow, or in the other, towards blue.
 My Aesthetic preference is always towards brighter colors though.
 Glenn
--- TBBS v2.1/NM
 * Origin: The INFERNO <*>Home of the PAGAN Echo<*> 609-886-6818 (266/72)

Message Number: [1363]    
From: Glenn Laws                         Date: 04-14-90
To:   Silver Claw                        Time: 14:18
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC 
Previous Reply: 1362
SeeAalso: 1375
I think the key word is "balance".
I have been putting a great deal of effort into understanding those who
would be negative towards me, and therefore try to show compassion.  I find it rare that anyone is ever really acting negatively towards me, but it does happen from time to time.  In such cases, giving them an
 unexpected positive, loving response will often ease the reason for their negativity, or make them feel bad for being that way, and thus inflicting their own just punishment in feeling sorry.
 It also makes me feel good for putting out that positive energy in
the face of the negative, and it brings additional rewards for having
done it.

 In rare cases where you feel you have to teach one a lesson, as a
parent would scold a child, I like to do a balancing two part ritual.
You choose someone who has asked help with a hardship, and you do
a ritual to remove that negativity from one person, while giving it to
the person who needs the lesson.  At the same time, you take away
positive energy from the person who needs the lesson and send it to
the person who you wish to relieve from hardship.  Somehow this kind of ritual seems to preserve my sense of balance and justice.

I would love to hear opinions on this.
 Glenn
--- TBBS v2.1/NM
 * Origin: The INFERNO <*>Home of the PAGAN Echo<*> 609-886-6818 (266/72)

Message Number: [1375]    
From: Ammond Shadowcraft                 Date: 04-13-90
To:   J Golsan                           Time: 09:39
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC 
Previous Reply: 1363
SeeAalso: 1376
In a message to Ammond Shadowcraft <04-11-90 13:04> J Golsan wrote:
JG><I'm beginning to believe (in my ever-increasingly
JG><enlightened state) that there are only apparent
JG><dichotomies.  There is no good-bad, black-white, etc.  That
JG><is illusion.  There is bad in good, and good in bad.  What
JG><is essential is to be in harmony with the universe.  The
JG><Universe is a "one" sort of thing--not two-sided.  There
JG><are no gods.  There are only gods.
        One of my favorite writers tells us "If it's a paradox, it's 
probably true." Tim Leary  
--- QuickBBS 2.64 (Eval)
 * Origin: THE CRYSTAL CAVE, "DER MAGICK TREFFPUNKT"(719 391-1092 (1:128/50)

Message Number: [1376]    
From: Amergin O'Kai                      Date: 04-14-90
To:   Paul Seymour                       Time: 05:49
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC 
Previous Reply: 1375
SeeAalso: 1377

EID:04ef 148e2e20
PS>Seen any good Green or Brown work lately?
   Actually I just completed some of a more general Earth tone.  Still 
integtrating all of it.  I told Russ the other day that I may very well 
make myself a robe out of camouflage.  Seems to fit a lot of what I find 
myself flowing into these days.  The only problem is that all the 
fabric seems to be largly, if not entirely, synthetic.  I hate wearing 
plastic fiber!  I may just have to stick with good ol' Basic Black. ;->
   On a more serious (???, nahhh...) vein, although I was being at least a  
little bit facetious with the magenta remark, I find my workings *do* 
tend to have some sense of colouring.  When I first started I had a 
*very* distinct blue tone.  Mostly had to do with my teen-age 
insecurity.  Now-a-days I'm pretty much working in Earth tones (as I 
said), but for a while I was definately in the wine-red spectrum. 
Looking at it, I notice my mundane wardrobe reflects this quite clealy.
BB! 
A-OK
--- Opus-CBCS 1.11
 * Origin: Dragonfriend's Place (1:104/11.0)

message Number: [1377]    
From: Paul Seymour                       Date: 04-14-90
To:   Amergin O'Kai                      Time: 10:37
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC 
Previous Reply: 1376
SeeAalso: 1401
In a message to Paul Seymour <04-14-90 05:49> Amergin O'Kai wrote:
 > tone.  Still integtrating all of it.  I told Russ the other
 > day that I may very well make myself a robe out of
 > camouflage.  Seems to fit a lot of what I find myself
 > flowing into these days.  The only problem is that all the
 > fabric seems to be largly, if not entirely, synthetic.
        What is to keep you from using a white cotton robe and coloring it
yourself?  I am looking for a pearl gray robe.  However, if I could find the
right shade of amber, I'd snatch it in a minute!  I am not always
comfortable with black.  It "feels" too "absorbtive" when I am doing work
that requires projection.  Of course white has the opposite effect for me.
 >  little bit facetious with the magenta remark, I find my
 > workings *do* tend to have some sense of colouring.
        I have found Bonewitz's remarks along this line to be very
interesting, though I do not necessarily go along with his assigned
symbolism (in REAL MAGIC) of the colors.  Perhaps we are inventing a new
system here - Magus Chromaticus- ? <GRIN>
        Bright (multi-hued) Blessings   -Paul-  
--- QuickBBS v2.61 [EVALUATION]
 * Origin: The Mountain Oracle "Witches & Pagans & Druids.....Oh My!" (1:301/9.0
Message Number: [1385]    
From: Aga Windwalker                     Date: 04-15-90
To:   Edwin Diaz                         Time: 10:33
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC
Previous Reply: 1335
SeeAalso: 1387
    You might want to take a look.  White magick is not prissy, you know.
There ARE powers and "spells" that can be used by white witches.  Nowhere
in the creed does it say that you must allow someone to harm you.  If these
enemies want harm to befall you, then it is pure self-defense.  I do not
think that the god(s)/dess(es) (don't know wether you are Wiccan or not)
would particularly hold it against you.  Nothing says that you must die
for this.
                 Walk a warrior born!
--- via Silver Xpress V2.20
 * Origin: Opera=Deorum: Home of Baphonet-by-the-Sea

Message Number: [1386]    
From: Aga Windwalker                     Date: 04-15-90
To:   Edwin Diaz                         Time: 10:37
Subject: Re: Black Magic
     Also, something that you might want to try (and it sounds strange, but
it works) is to visualize a pure white light.  Let is surround you.  Let
it form a cloak around you.  This "cloak" is like armor.  So long as it is
there, psychic attacks are thwarted.  It's your armor, so to speak.  It
works for me.
      Also, someone suggested letting that white light surround you.  That
works well also.  I was in a similar situation to you.  Luckilly, it was
considered a draw and both parties went their separate ways.  I wish you
the best of luck!!!!

 Blessed Be!
--- via Silver Xpress V2.20
 * Origin: Opera=Deorum: Home of Baphonet-by-the-Sea

Message Number: [1387]    
From: Aga Windwalker                     Date: 04-15-90
To:   Paul Seymour                       Time: 10:39
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC
Previous Reply: 1385
SeeAalso: 1388
     I can only use two colors for my robes.  Grey or black.  Any other
color seems to distract me too easilly.  Maybe I need to go ahead and take
a look at more rigorous training.  Actually though, isn't that what the
"acceptable" colors are?  I mean, I know that they are all ok, but aren't
grey and black the "defaults"?

 Peace!
--- via Silver Xpress V2.20
 * Origin: Opera=Deorum: Home of Baphonet-by-the-Sea

Message Number: [1388]    
From: Aga Windwalker                     Date: 04-15-90
To:   Robin Hood                         Time: 10:41
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC
Previous Reply: 1387
SeeAalso: 1414
     I beg to differ about black and white being "unimaginative".  What if
I were to say that I think any other colors smack of "loud and boisterous"
craft?  I think it's all a matter of personal taste.  Colors just distract
me too much.
--- via Silver Xpress V2.20
* Origin: Opera=Deorum: Home of Baphonet-by-the-Sea

Message Number: [1389]    
From: Aga Windwalker                     Date: 04-15-90
To:   Julie Rhodes                       Time: 10:45
Subject: Re: GOOD LUCK REQUEST
SeeAalso: 4438
     Hey Julie, don't give up.  I just recently went through the same thing.
I had pretty much the same situation, and although I am not back up to the
best possible, I'm certainly far better than I was before.  Take a look at
it this way.  You said that before, you were almost going to lose your
marriage.  Now however, you are back together.  Be comforted.  Things have
already gotten better.
     About your employers.  It's their loss.  I'm sure that you will find
something that is INFINETLY better.  Remember, you make it happen.  If you
do not think that you are worthy of it, chances are it won't be given to you.
Take Destiny by the horns and get her to understand that you want happiness
and are willing to work for it.  It'll all come out fine in the end, so long
as you NEVER give up!!!
    I'll remember you in my meditations.  However, I think you're already
on the right track to recovery.

    In light, life and love, blessed be!!
                                                  Aga Windwalker
--- via Silver Xpress V2.20
 * Origin: Opera=Deorum: Home of Baphonet-by-the-Sea

Message Number: [1401]    
From: Simon Waters                       Date: 04-14-90
To:   Paul Seymour                       Time: 17:01
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC 
Previous Reply: 1377
SeeAalso: 1402

EID:57b1 148e882a

MSGID: 1:109/120 26278fb8
 > PS: Seen any good Green or Brown work lately? 
according to matt wagner, "magic is green".... 
--- Opus-CBCS 1.11
 * Origin: TIDMADT Enterprises 703-370-7054 USR-DS PCP=DCWAS (1:109/120.0)

Message Number: [1402]    
From: Paul Seymour                       Date: 04-15-90
To:   Simon Waters                       Time: 09:20
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC 
Previous Reply: 1401
SeeAalso: 1443
In a message to Paul Seymour <04-14-90 17:01> Simon Waters wrote:
 >  according to matt wagner, "magic is green"....
Am I being dense and missing a joke? or just showing some of my ignorance?
Who is matt wagner?  I tend to assign Magick a whole spectrum of colors
according to the predominant aura of the work/worker.
        B*B  -Paul-  
--- QuickBBS v2.61 [EVALUATION]
 * Origin: The Mountain Oracle "Witches & Pagans & Druids.....Oh My!" (1:301/9.0
Message Number: [1414]    
From: GANDALF                            Date: 04-17-90
To:   Robin Hood                         Time: 04:12
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC
Previous Reply: 1388
SeeAalso: 1441

EID:d75a 14912183
I like your idea about the chromatic colors club.I myself am grey.
as opposed to Saruman the White.Just ramblings on by a madman.Later.
 * Origin: Opera=Amorum, BaphoNet-At-Night =*= (718) 499-9277 (Opus 1:107/666)

Message Number: [1441]    
From: Camo Kat                           Date: 04-16-90
To:   Robin Hood                         Time: 04:34
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC
Previous Reply: 1414
SeeAalso: 1442

EID:cdd8 1490244d

MSGID: 1:109/120 26298436
good point there about martial arts!

To take it one step further to the person who needed a solid defense. 
  Use the eastern 4 elements theories... Earth/Water/Fire/Wind  Fight 
Fire with Water, not fire.  Water is angling defenses.  Shift yourself 
such that the harmful energies glance off and send them back to fizzle 
out. then crash back to the opponent like the waves of the oceans.
-- Opus-CBCS 1.12
 * Origin: TIDMADT Enterprises 703-370-7054 USR-DS PCP=DCWAS (1:109/120.0)

Message Number: [1442]    
From: Paul Seymour                       Date: 04-16-90
To:   Aga Windwalker                     Time: 07:58
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC
Previous Reply: 1441
SeeAalso: 1448
In a message to Paul Seymour <04-15-90 10:39> Aga Windwalker wrote:
 >      I can only use two colors for my robes.  Grey or
 > black.  Any other
 > color seems to distract me too easilly.  Maybe I need to go
 > ahead and take
 > a look at more rigorous training.  Actually though, isn't
 > that what the
 > "acceptable" colors are?  I mean, I know that they are all
 > ok, but aren't
 > grey and black the "defaults"?
Actually, I think white and black are the two defaults.  However, if you
read REAL MAGIC by P.E.I. Bonewits, you might find his discussions of the
"colors" of Magick very interesting.
        B*B  -Paul-  
--- QuickBBS v2.61 [EVALUATION]
 * Origin: The Mountain Oracle "Witches & Pagans & Druids.....Oh My!" (1:301/9.0
Message Number: [1443]    
From: Simon Waters                       Date: 04-16-90
To:   Paul Seymour                       Time: 14:47
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC 
Previous Reply: 1402
SeeAalso: 1444

EID:448b 149075e2

MSGID: 1:109/120 262a134c
 >>  according to matt wagner, "magic is green".... 
 > PS: Am I being dense and missing a joke? or just showing some of 
 > PS: my ignorance? 
 > PS: Who is matt wagner? 
c
omic book artist - wrote and drew "mage".... 
--- Opus-CBCS 1.12
 * Origin: TIDMADT Enterprises 703-370-7054 USR-DS PCP=DCWAS (1:109/120.0)

Message Number: [1444]    
From: Steven Craig                       Date: 04-17-90
To:   Edwin Diaz                         Time: 02:03
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC 
Previous Reply: 1443
SeeAalso: 1445


EID:f7a4 14911070


MSGID: 1:109/120 262ab290



  For those working in a Christian tradition, your statement may be 

correct, but most Pagans do not use such a belief system, and as such 

may not even recognize the existence of Satan.



  In my belief, all types of magick stem from the same source; it is 

merely the application of this universal energy which differentiates 

"black" magick from "white".  I tend to classify the former as any act 

of magick which infringes upon the will of another, while non-black 

magick is that aimed to help another (willing) individual, or else to 

effect only the magickian him/herself.



 



  -Blessed Be,



   Steve





--- Opus-CBCS 1.12

 * Origin: TIDMADT Enterprises 703-370-7054 USR-DS PCP=DCWAS (1:109/120.0)




Message Number: [1445]    

From: Steven Craig                       Date: 04-17-90
To:   Edwin Diaz                         Time: 02:07
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC 
Previous Reply: 1444
SeeAalso: 1446


EID:f7a4 149110ed


MSGID: 1:109/120 262ab5a5



  I think you might be overreacting a bit here.  Granted, the 

possibility exists for causing harm through magick, but in most cases, 

the problem is due to an overactive imagination rather than actual 

psychic attack.  I do not mean to belittle you in any way, but rather 

ease your worries; when I first started practicing magick, I was 

overwhelmed by all manner of paranoid fears, due partly to 

misinformation, mostly to my own imagination freaking out.



  Anyway, the first step I suggest is to settle down and figure out 

what PROOF you have you are being attacked magickally.  Frequent 

headaches do not constitute proof, nor do threats from the people you 

believe are attacking you.  In fact, if you receive such threats, odds 

are the people are bluffing: one of the highest principles of magick is 

secrecy, and if someone wanted to make your life miserable magickally, 

odds are they wouldn't put you on your guard by telling you about it.



  If, after careful, level-headed consideration, you are still 

convinced of magickal attack, the next step is to not attack them back. 

 Another basic tenet in magick is the law of Karmic returns, which 

states that any energy you set into motion will return to you, 

intensified threefold.  Thus, once the negative energy "bounces back", 

the problem should take of itself.  In the meantime, you might want to 

take some defensive measures.  The most obvious of these would be 

establishing a psychic shield, be it in the form of a mirror (which 

someone else suggested earlier), or a protective shell of white light, 

which is probably the most common visualization of protection.  Or, if 

you have a cleansing ritual from a specific tradition which you feel 

comfortable with, use that.



 



  -Blessed Be,



   Steve





--- Opus-CBCS 1.12

 * Origin: TIDMADT Enterprises 703-370-7054 USR-DS PCP=DCWAS (1:109/120.0)




Message Number: [1446]    

From: Steven Craig                       Date: 04-17-90
To:   Amergin O'Kai                      Time: 02:21
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC 
Previous Reply: 1445
SeeAalso: 1447


EID:0f5a 149112b1


MSGID: 1:109/120 262ab697



> Personally, I prefer Magenta Magyck.



 



  Yuck!  Don't you know that Ecru magick is all the rage in Summerland 

this year?  I myself prefer a nice rich, green magick, with the circle 

cast in soft yellow, to provide an attractive trim...



 



  -Blessed Buzzings,



   Steve





--- Opus-CBCS 1.12

 * Origin: TIDMADT Enterprises 703-370-7054 USR-DS PCP=DCWAS (1:109/120.0)




Message Number: [1447]    

From: Steven Craig                       Date: 04-17-90
To:   J Golsan                           Time: 02:24
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC 
Previous Reply: 1446
SeeAalso: 4297


EID:f7a4 14911316


MSGID: 1:109/120 262ab6cd



> There are no gods.  There are only gods.



 



  I love it!  That one goes straight into my quote file...



 



  -Namaste,



   Steve





--- Opus-CBCS 1.12

 * Origin: TIDMADT Enterprises 703-370-7054 USR-DS PCP=DCWAS (1:109/120.0)




Message Number: [1448]    

From: Steven Craig                       Date: 04-17-90
To:   Robin Hood                         Time: 02:28
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC
Previous Reply: 1442
SeeAalso: 4424


EID:f7a4 14911386


MSGID: 1:109/120 262ab7c0



> p.s.  Satan... Ha!  Maybe it was Kali, or better yet Eris just 

keeping



>people on their toes.



 



  Actually, I always thought Erisians practiced plaid magick, or if 

they can't handle that, polka-dots...



 



  -Blessed Buzzings,



   Steve





--- Opus-CBCS 1.12

 * Origin: TIDMADT Enterprises 703-370-7054 USR-DS PCP=DCWAS (1:109/120.0)




Message Number: [1457]    

From: Randall Terpstra                   Date: 04-17-90
To:   All                                Time: 12:51
Subject: Thuggee, Thagi, or Kali Worship


EID:d75a 14916669



I am researching the evolution of the Thuggee clan that was active in 

India in the late 1800's.  The British all but eradicated this sect. I 

have been led to believe that there is a re-generation of this sect here 

in the U.S..  I believe that it originated in or around the 1979-1981 

period about the same time as the Bagwhan Shree Rajhneesh made his 

appearance in the U.S.. (That should be Bahgwan), I believe that one of 

his followers may have "spun-off" and has become a teacher of the 

spiritualism of Kali.  Any information that you could provide me would be 

greatly appreciated. Annonymity is assured if necessary.





---

 * Origin: Opera=Amorum, BaphoNet-At-Night =*= (718) 499-9277 (Opus 1:107/666)




Message Number: [4297]    

From: Doctor Rorschach                   Date: 04-19-90
To:   Steven Craig                       Time: 11:49
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC 
Previous Reply: 1447
SeeAalso: 4934

SC>   Yuck!  Don't you know that Ecru magick is all the rage

SC>in Summerland this year?  I myself prefer a nice rich,

SC>green magick, with the circle cast in soft yellow, to

SC>provide an attractive trim...



and after i just redecorated the whole temple in midnight blue with silver 

trim?  sigh......



b/b



                =========

                rorschach

                =========



"slave to esoteric fashion"  

 

--- QuickBBS v2.62 (K) Kallisti

 * Origin: Take delight in Nature's gifts; and have no foe but wrong! (1:363/17)




Message Number: [4424]    

From: Paul Seymour                       Date: 04-17-90
To:   Steven Craig                       Time: 08:25
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC
Previous Reply: 1448
SeeAalso: 4915

In a message to Robin Hood <04-17-90 02:28> Steven Craig wrote:



 >    Actually, I always thought Erisians practiced plaid

                                                    ^^^^^

 > magick, or if they can't handle that, polka-dots...

Where did the "p" come from?  I thought most just wanted  ot get laid?  

 

--- QuickBBS v2.61 [EVALUATION]

 * Origin: The Mountain Oracle "Witches & Pagans & Druids.....Oh My!" (1:301/9.0




Message Number: [4425]    

From: Fifth Warrior                      Date: 04-18-90
To:   Shanti Lightdancer                 Time: 00:45
Subject: Re: seminary class
SeeAalso: 4935

   Could you ask your Yoruba friend if he is from Nigeria, and if so when 

was the last time he was in Nigeria.  Thanx





>>>The Fifth Warrior<<<  

 

--- QuickBBS 2.64 (Eval)

 * Origin: G.O.D./D.E.S.S. Kansas City's Neo-Pagan BBS (1:280/311)




Message Number: [4426]    

From: Fifth Warrior                      Date: 04-18-90
To:   Gerald Bliss                       Time: 00:48
Subject: Re: The Wiccan Read
SeeAalso: 4921

   Would you consider looking at a fiction text I'm working on.





>>>The Fifth Warrior<<<  

 

--- QuickBBS 2.64 (Eval)

 * Origin: G.O.D./D.E.S.S. Kansas City's Neo-Pagan BBS (1:280/311)




Message Number: [4427]    

From: Fifth Warrior                      Date: 04-18-90
To:   the Bard                           Time: 00:50
Subject: Re: Cthulhul
SeeAalso: 4922

I bought a copy of the Necronomicon and was wondering if anyone had any 

further info on its authenticty.



>>>The Fifth Warrior<<  

 

--- QuickBBS 2.64 (Eval)

 * Origin: G.O.D./D.E.S.S. Kansas City's Neo-Pagan BBS (1:280/311)




Message Number: [4428]    

From: Fifth Warrior                      Date: 04-18-90
To:   The Magician                       Time: 00:55
Subject: Re: the advocate dan & deanna tyler
SeeAalso: 4920

Why say you "been had" Magician?



>>>The Fifth Warrior<<<  

 

--- QuickBBS 2.64 (Eval)

 * Origin: G.O.D./D.E.S.S. Kansas City's Neo-Pagan BBS (1:280/311)




Message Number: [4438]    

From: Julie Rhodes                       Date: 04-19-90
To:   Aga Windwalker                     Time: 17:47
Subject: Re: GOOD LUCK REQUEST
Previous Reply: 1389
SeeAalso: 6456

Thanks for the kind note.  I figure that my employers (like most employers) won't especially care about someone they have let go, especially in the way they let ME go (they called me into personnel at 4:30 on a Thursday and informed me that my work was "not up to their standards" [although for 9 months previously it had been fine] and that I need not even show up to finish out the week.  I was waiting for someone to watch while I cleaned outmy desk to make sure I didn't steal a paperclip or something.  To the contrary, I didn't even format my hard drive, although my friends all say I should have).  Since then I have had to ggo in and actually get them to SIGN my severance check.  Apparently they let go more people than me "suddenly" and didn't botheer to sign ANYONE'S check.  Knowing what I do now, my guess is it was deliberate.  Anyway, I keep on trying.

--- TBBS v2.1/NM

 * Origin: The INFERNO <*>Home of the PAGAN Echo<*> 609-886-6818 (266/72)




Message Number: [4439]    

From: Glenn Laws                         Date: 04-19-90
To:   Fifth Warrior                      Time: 20:21
Subject: Re: CTHULHUL
SeeAalso: 5381

I would be interested in knowing of it's authenticity as well.  Though the book has no real pull for me, I find it an interesting work.  Magickal Childe of New York offers the Necronomicon as a beautiful hardbound book that looks like it materialized right out of a fantasy novel.  Off the top of my head, I think they were charging something like 50 bucks for the thing.  It definately is something a collector would want on his shelf, though I see no real use for the book other than for aesthetics.

 

 I heard this awful rumor that someone closely connected with a certain book publisher decided to throw it together as a money maker.  My sources

(interestingly enough, there were several unconnected sources who also heard the rumor, sources I usually regard as fairly reputable) said that

the book, in reality, was a complete fake.  Has anyone else heard that?

 

 Cloaked in Curiosity.

 Glenn

--- TBBS v2.1/NM

 * Origin: The INFERNO <*>Home of the PAGAN Echo<*> 609-886-6818 (266/72)




Message Number: [4915]    

From: Simon Waters                       Date: 04-18-90
To:   Steven Craig                       Time: 00:47
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC
Previous Reply: 4424
SeeAalso: 4916


EID:448b 149205ec


MSGID: 1:109/120 262bf183



 > SC:   Actually, I always thought Erisians practiced plaid magick, 

 



is that where rogue's plaid potions come from? 

 



which reminds me, on a more serious note, what about clear magick? 



--- Opus-CBCS 1.12

 * Origin: TIDMADT Enterprises 703-370-7054 USR-DS PCP=DCWAS (1:109/120.0)




Message Number: [4916]    

From: Steven Craig                       Date: 04-18-90
To:   Paul Seymour                       Time: 01:05
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC
Previous Reply: 4915
SeeAalso: 4917


EID:7384 149208ac


MSGID: 1:109/120 262bf5c0



> Where did the "p" come from?  I thought most just wanted  ot get 

laid?



 



  Except for Erisians living on Polynesian islands; they just wanna get 

leid...



 



  -Blessed Buzzings,



   Steve





--- Opus-CBCS 1.12

 * Origin: TIDMADT Enterprises 703-370-7054 USR-DS PCP=DCWAS (1:109/120.0)




Message Number: [4917]    

From: Brigid Dragonchild                 Date: 04-17-90
To:   Aga Windwalker                     Time: 20:01
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC
Previous Reply: 4916
SeeAalso: 4918

"Colors just distract me too much." 

 

Then you are missing an awful lot...nothing is ever just black or white...

 

Dragonchild

--- TBBS v2.1/NM

 * Origin: *Chrysalis*  Multi-User  (214) 519-0728  Dallas, Tx  (124/4214)




Message Number: [4918]    

From: Brigid Dragonchild                 Date: 04-17-90
To:   Steven Craig                       Time: 20:03
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC
Previous Reply: 4917
SeeAalso: 4919

The ultimate Erisian power robe is paisley...

 

Hail Eris...

 

Dragonchild

--- TBBS v2.1/NM

 * Origin: *Chrysalis*  Multi-User  (214) 519-0728  Dallas, Tx  (124/4214)




Message Number: [4919]    

From: Paul Seymour                       Date: 04-18-90
To:   Steven Craig                       Time: 21:11
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC
Previous Reply: 4918
SeeAalso: 4923

In a message to Paul Seymour <04-18-90 01:05> Steven Craig wrote:



 >PS> Where did the "p" come from?  I thought most just wanted

 >PS> to get laid?

 >

 >    Except for Erisians living on Polynesian islands; they

 > just wanna get leid...

 >    -Blessed Buzzings,

 >     Steve

        Must be the flowers of their families, you know "blooming" idiots!

        B*B -Paul-  

 

--- QuickBBS v2.61 [EVALUATION]

 * Origin: The Mountain Oracle "Witches & Pagans & Druids.....Oh My!" (1:301/9.0




Message Number: [4920]    

From: The Magician                       Date: 04-18-90
To:   Fifth Warrior                      Time: 16:29
Subject: Re: the advocate dan & deanna tyler
Previous Reply: 4428

In a message to The Magician <04-18-90 00:55> Fifth Warrior wrote:



FW><Why say you "been had" Magician?

FW><

FW><>>>The Fifth Warrior<<<



If you will look at the article they sau that he had been raised in the 

wiccan faith, and when he went to college he turned to the dark side.

    he repented and is now a born again fundy.

  Like I said I think we have been had.



(I am remembering this cause Rowan has my one and only copy of that 

meeting.)



B*B  

 

--- QuickBBS 2.64 (Eval)

 * Origin: THE CRYSTAL CAVE, "DER MAGICK TREFFPUNKT"(719 391-1092 (1:128/50)




Message Number: [4921]    

From: Gerald Bliss                       Date: 04-18-90
To:   Fifth Warrior                      Time: 19:18
Subject: Re: The Wiccan Read
Previous Reply: 4426

In a message to Gerald Bliss <04-18-90 00:48> Fifth Warrior wrote:



FW><   Would you consider looking at a fiction text I'm working

FW><on.



Yes.  Send it.  I'll read anything...  and I will let you know how it went, 

what I thought of it, and whether we can publish it or find another 

publisher.  Thank you.  

 

--- QuickBBS 2.64 (Eval)

 * Origin: THE CRYSTAL CAVE, "DER MAGICK TREFFPUNKT"(719 391-1092 (1:128/50)




Message Number: [4922]    

From: Steven Craig                       Date: 04-19-90
To:   Fifth Warrior                      Time: 03:28
Subject: Re: Cthulhul
Previous Reply: 4427
SeeAalso: 4952


EID:f7a4 14931b99


MSGID: 1:109/120 262d6a00



  While I am not one to put down the beliefs of others, I can safely 

say the Necronomicon is crap; as far as anyone knows, there were no 

mentions of the text's existence until the stories of H.P. Lovecraft, 

who did his writing a while after the heyday of the Babylonians and 

Sumerians.  While there is some interesting historical material in the 

book's introduction, I would take it with the proverbial grain of salt, 

magickally speaking.



  The amusing thing is that after becoming aware that the entire 

magickal community recognizes the work is a forgery, I came across an 

ad in Llewllyn's latest catalog for the long lost "Necronomicon 

Spellbook"; a companion volume offering "practical magick" to gain, 

wealth, love, and the rest of the standard fare.  To hell with 

spiritual enlightenment; we want a better job!



 



  -Blessed Be,



   Steve





--- Opus-CBCS 1.12

 * Origin: TIDMADT Enterprises 703-370-7054 USR-DS PCP=DCWAS (1:109/120.0)




Message Number: [4923]    

From: Tony Nico                          Date: 04-18-90
To:   Aga Windwalker                     Time: 20:53
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC
Previous Reply: 4919
SeeAalso: 4924

Actually, there really should be something pointed out to everyone about 

colors.  The only way color gets its power is from the person who is using 

the color.  In scientific terms, the color "black" is a color which absorbs 

all other colors of the spectrum.  "White", as we know it, is the reflection 

and refraction of the spectrum.  The only significance a color will have is 

the significance **YOU** place on it.  If you say that you work best in 

black, then by all means, wear black.  The Lady and Her Consort don't really 

care what color you wear when you worship.  Just keep that in mind.  

Bright blessings upon you.

--- TBBS v2.1/NM

 * Origin: *Chrysalis*  Multi-User  (214) 519-0728  Dallas, Tx  (124/4214)




Message Number: [4924]    

From: Kihe Blackeagle                    Date: 04-18-90
To:   Aga Windwalker                     Time: 23:59
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC
Previous Reply: 4923
SeeAalso: 4933

Aga, I would add two commentaries on your advice (sorry that I cannot 

respond directly to the original, but it does not appear on the area here at 

Chrysalis -- PAGAN was *just* added to our linkages).

 

First, if the troubled traveller is not Wiccan, do not let that dissuade 

your argument. More than enough follow the Aesir or Vanir, or practice other 

traditions which include reverence for a "warrior path". Even the peoples 

drawing only upon the JC "Holy Bible": remember David, Joshua, et al.

 

Second, I *always* tell my students / fellow scholars to use whatever color 

imagery seems most correct for themselves. One of the most finely crafted 

personal psychic shields I have ever dealt with was the pseudovisual equal of 

a Coors "Silver Bullet", with tentacles! In other phrasing, white is not 

necessarily the best protective aural color. At times, it is NOT the easiest, 

either. Blues seem to be even more effective where there is *any* aspect of 

healing involved, at least for my own experiences.

 

Pax ... Kihe

--- TBBS v2.1/NM

 * Origin: *Chrysalis*  Multi-User  (214) 519-0728  Dallas, Tx  (124/4214)




Message Number: [4933]    

From: Aga Windwalker                     Date: 04-19-90
To:   Paul Seymour                       Time: 09:09
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC
Previous Reply: 4924
SeeAalso: 4954

 PS> Actually, I think white and black are the two defaults.



     Ooops.  My mistake.  Thought grey was one of the defaults.



 PS> However, if you read REAL MAGIC by P.E.I. Bonewits, you might

 PS> find his discussions of the "colors" of Magick very interesting.



     Thanks for the title!  I'll have to check it out!

Blessed Be!



                            -=)-



--- via Silver Xpress V2.20

 * Origin: Opera=Deorum: Home of Baphonet-by-the-Sea




Message Number: [4934]    

From: Shanti Lightdancer                 Date: 04-20-90
To:   Steven Craig                       Time: 22:52
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC 
Previous Reply: 4297
SeeAalso: 5789


EID:b3f7 1494b685

  > There are no gods, there are only gods.

 

Yeah...and they're only gods, after all.

 

 





---

 * Origin: Opera=Amorum, BaphoNet-At-Night =*= (718) 499-9277 (Opus 1:107/666)




Message Number: [4935]    

From: Shanti Lightdancer                 Date: 04-20-90
To:   Fifth Warrior                      Time: 22:53
Subject: Re: seminary class
Previous Reply: 4425
SeeAalso: 5816


EID:b3f7 1494b6a5

Actually, the Yoruba priest is an Afro-American.  Unfortunately, I 

don't know any Africans now.

 

Anything else you'd like to know about him?

 

I'm curious: Do you have contacts with Nigerians--or are you a Nigerian?

 

Peace

 





---

 * Origin: Opera=Amorum, BaphoNet-At-Night =*= (718) 499-9277 (Opus 1:107/666)




Message Number: [4952]    

From: Russ Anderson                      Date: 04-20-90
To:   Amergin O'Kai                      Time: 02:15
Subject: Re: Cthulhul
Previous Reply: 4922
SeeAalso: 4953


EID:7933 149411e0

 AO+>    While granting that any claim that the "Necronomicon" is any way 

 AO+> related to Lovecraft's invention is pure BS (But very lucrative BS!), 

 AO+> as a magyckal text it has some interesting points.  Whoever wrote it 

 AO+> was very faithful to their source text.  I suggest comparing their 

 AO+> text to that of "Poems of Heaven and Hell from Ancient Mesopotamia", 

 AO+> trans. N.K. Sandars; Penguin Books, 1971; ISBN 0 14 044.249 9.  This 

 AO+> is still in print.  The relevant passages are the Creation Myth (how 

 AO+> Marduk slew Tiamat and created the world) including "The Hymn of the 

 AO+> Fifty Names of Marduk", and Inanna's Journey into Hell.  These are 

 AO+> translations of actual Babylonian liturgical texts.  The author(s) of 

 AO+> the "Necronomicon" show remarkable consistancy both with this text and 

 AO+> internally within the book.  



 The question then becomes which "version" of the "Necronomicon" by which author, and publisher? I understand that several publishers have printed versions of the "Necronomicon" which have nothing to do whith each other except that all are "lost grimiores".



 B*B

 Dragonfriend (Russ)



--- ZMailO 1.10 - Delta B

 * Origin: Dragonfriend's Point (1:104/11.5)




Message Number: [4953]    

From: Amergin O'Kai                      Date: 04-20-90
To:   Russ Anderson                      Time: 12:17
Subject: Re: Cthulhul
Previous Reply: 4952
SeeAalso: 6455


EID:a18d 14946239



RA>The question becomes which version.



 



While I am aware of various texts being published under that name, the 

only one I know of currently in print, and certainely the most heavily 

marketed, is by "Simon", from Avon Books, 1980 (this is the paperback 

edition).  As to the actual author, that has been hashed about rather 

sharply to no avail on many occasions.  I think I've told you about a 

discussion in which a local HPS *insisted* that it was written by two 

mechanics who *were not* members of the OTO. (As if these two things were 

mutually exclusive!)  After comparing the two texts I refered to in my 

last post, I do believe that the actual author(s) drew upon a working 

knowledge of magyck, as well as an imaginative literary style and a keen 

sense of advertising!



BB!



A-OK





--- Opus-CBCS 1.11

 * Origin: Dragonfriend's Place (1:104/11.0)




Message Number: [4954]    

From: Kihe Blackeagle                    Date: 04-20-90
To:   Aga Windwalker                     Time: 00:19
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC
Previous Reply: 4933
SeeAalso: 4955

(Second attempt to enter -- system "packed up" on me last night)

 

Pretty thorough, as far as you have gone. My suggestion is that the best 

shielding energies are not necessarily "white". If there is *any* aspect of 

healing involved, I find that "blue" is far more effective. Possibly in part 

because it is NOT white, and too many "players" learned by inflexible rote 

methods. Hmmmmm....

 

Pax ... Kihe

--- TBBS v2.1/NM

 * Origin: *Chrysalis*  Multi-User  (214) 519-0728  Dallas, Tx  (124/4214)




Message Number: [4955]    

From: Kihe Blackeagle                    Date: 04-20-90
To:   Brigid Dragonchild                 Time: 00:22
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC
Previous Reply: 4954
SeeAalso: 4956

Shucks -- and here I was just about to whomp up a houndstooth in green and 

yellow instead. Pshaw...P-{)

 

Pax ... Kihe

--- TBBS v2.1/NM

 * Origin: *Chrysalis*  Multi-User  (214) 519-0728  Dallas, Tx  (124/4214)




Message Number: [4956]    

From: Kihe Blackeagle                    Date: 04-20-90
To:   Kihe Blackeagle                    Time: 00:26
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC
Previous Reply: 4955
SeeAalso: 5380

Oops -- double reply: system packed ME up, but the first, and better, post 

apparently went out on schedule. Apologia.... Pax ... Kihe

--- TBBS v2.1/NM

 * Origin: *Chrysalis*  Multi-User  (214) 519-0728  Dallas, Tx  (124/4214)




Message Number: [5380]    

From: Ann Waldrum                        Date: 04-20-90
To:   Kihe Blackeagle                    Time: 09:36
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC
Previous Reply: 4956
SeeAalso: 5382

One of the most effective shields that I have seen used is the "favorite 

color" of the person, the color that makes them feel most comfortable that 

they would choose for an imaginary "comforter" or their comfortable magic 

carpet -- relax down into the "comforter", surrounding yourself with it -- 

color is personal favorite of the moment.  The color most needed will reveal 

itself to the individual.

--- TBBS v2.1/NM

 * Origin: *Chrysalis*  Multi-User  (214) 519-0728  Dallas, Tx  (124/4214)




Message Number: [5381]    

From: Sam Hane                           Date: 04-20-90
To:   Fifth Warrior                      Time: 11:20
Subject: Re: CTHULHUL
Previous Reply: 4439
SeeAalso: 5819

<< To hell with spiritual enlightenment, we want a better job!!

 

Welcome to Yuppie Wicca.

--- TBBS v2.1/NM

 * Origin: *Chrysalis*  Multi-User  (214) 519-0728  Dallas, Tx  (124/4214)




Message Number: [5382]    

From: Brigid Dragonchild                 Date: 04-20-90
To:   Kihe Blackeagle                    Time: 20:02
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC
Previous Reply: 5380
SeeAalso: 5790

Hey, whatever turns you on...

 

This year's Yuppie power robe should  be teal paisley...a large print, not a 

small one...see

"Dress for Success - 1990"...

 

Dragonchild

--- TBBS v2.1/NM

 * Origin: *Chrysalis*  Multi-User  (214) 519-0728  Dallas, Tx  (124/4214)




Message Number: [5789]    

From: Edwin Diaz                         Date: 04-20-90
To:   Phil Hansford                      Time: 14:12
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC 
Previous Reply: 4934
SeeAalso: 5792

thank you for your bit of help!!!!

I will try it some time soon. If you have anything that might help

please do tell me. As you know, I'm very interested in magic

Edwin

--- TBBS v2.1/NM

 * Origin: The INFERNO <*>Home of the PAGAN Echo<*> 609-886-6818 (266/72)




Message Number: [5790]    

From: Edwin Diaz                         Date: 04-20-90
To:   Aga Windwalker                     Time: 14:16
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC
Previous Reply: 5382
SeeAalso: 5791

thank you for your moral support!!! I've been waging a mystical 

battle with my arch-enemies for two months now. I'm sorry to say 

that I'm losing the battle!! If you know of any spells or rituals

please tell me. I would like to know. Also, what is wicca?

Edwin

--- TBBS v2.1/NM

 * Origin: The INFERNO <*>Home of the PAGAN Echo<*> 609-886-6818 (266/72)




Message Number: [5791]    

From: Edwin Diaz                         Date: 04-20-90
To:   Aga Windwalker                     Time: 14:18
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC
Previous Reply: 5790
SeeAalso: 5817

thank you for your bit of help!!! I will try it this weekend.

Any bit of help is greatly needed. Thank you so much!!!

Edwin

s

--- TBBS v2.1/NM

 * Origin: The INFERNO <*>Home of the PAGAN Echo<*> 609-886-6818 (266/72)




Message Number: [5792]    

From: Edwin Diaz                         Date: 04-20-90
To:   Steven Craig                       Time: 14:20
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC 
Previous Reply: 5789
SeeAalso: 6850

I see what you mean. Alot of people were confused by plea of 

help. I guess I should clarify the difference sometime soon

Edwin

--- TBBS v2.1/NM

 * Origin: The INFERNO <*>Home of the PAGAN Echo<*> 609-886-6818 (266/72)




Message Number: [5793]    

From: Edwin Diaz                         Date: 04-20-90
To:   Steven Craig                       Time: 14:22
Subject: SPELLS

thank you for your bit of knowledge I will use it son!!

Edwin

s

--- TBBS v2.1/NM

 * Origin: The INFERNO <*>Home of the PAGAN Echo<*> 609-886-6818 (266/72)




Message Number: [5816]    

From: Fifth Warrior                      Date: 04-21-90
To:   Shanti Lightdancer                 Time: 23:22
Subject: Re: seminary class
Previous Reply: 4935

   No,  I was in Nigeria in 4th - 6th grade.  While there I learned alot 

about the pagan religions.  On of the bars my dad frequented has a Yoruba 

priestess who owned it.



thanx



>>Fifth Warrior<<  

 

--- QuickBBS 2.64 (Eval)

 * Origin: G.O.D./D.E.S.S. Kansas City's Neo-Pagan BBS (1:280/311)




Message Number: [5817]    

From: Fifth Warrior                      Date: 04-22-90
To:   Steven Craig                       Time: 00:26
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC
Previous Reply: 5791
SeeAalso: 5818

  Not another pun.  Bad Human Bad Human!  No biscuit!



>>>Fifth Warrior<<<  

 

--- QuickBBS 2.64 (Eval)

 * Origin: G.O.D./D.E.S.S. Kansas City's Neo-Pagan BBS (1:280/311)




Message Number: [5818]    

From: Kihe Blackeagle                    Date: 04-21-90
To:   Ann Waldrum                        Time: 23:49
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC
Previous Reply: 5817
SeeAalso: 6452

Given time to build experience, I certainly agree with you Ann. Under "field 

emergency" conditions, I tend to grab whatever fits best at the moment -- 

typically "white". "blue". or even during one period "black".

 

(We are not talking coal dust here, I'm talking about a glowing absence of 

light. Tremendously hard to work with unless the practitioner just happens to 

luck across the knack for doing so. Have re-examined those particular 

episodes repeatedly over the years with wonder. *True* radiant full spectrum 

non-discrete component "wavelength" you better believe it BLACK. Amazingly 

comforting, too: "what you can't see can not hurt you"!)

 

Pax ... Kihe

--- TBBS v2.1/NM

 * Origin: *Chrysalis*  Multi-User  (214) 519-0728  Dallas, Tx  (124/4214)




Message Number: [5819]    

From: Kihe Blackeagle                    Date: 04-22-90
To:   Russ Anderson                      Time: 01:07
Subject: Re: CTHULHUL
Previous Reply: 5381

and at least one "Necronomicon" was purely and blatantly an aid for 

role-playing games.... Pax ... Kihe

--- TBBS v2.1/NM

 * Origin: *Chrysalis*  Multi-User  (214) 519-0728  Dallas, Tx  (124/4214)




Message Number: [6452]    

From: Aga Windwalker                     Date: 04-23-90
To:   Brigid Dragonchild                 Time: 06:27
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC
Previous Reply: 5818
SeeAalso: 6453

 BD> "Colors just distract me too much."

 BD>

 BD> Then you are missing an awful lot...nothing is ever just black

 BD> or white...

 BD> Dragonchild



     I am well aware that nothing is just black and white.  All I said was

that my ROBES could only be black and white.  You cannot possibly expect

me to believe that the robe makes the witch.



                                                    -=)-



--- via Silver Xpress V2.20

 * Origin: Opera=Deorum: Home of Baphonet-by-the-Sea




Message Number: [6453]    

From: Aga Windwalker                     Date: 04-23-90
To:   Tony Nico                          Time: 06:30
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC
Previous Reply: 6452
SeeAalso: 6454



In regards to color:



        The woman who got me involved in the Craft taught me what I guess

I can only refer to as "Shadowcraft".  We were unseen, unknown.  We wore

dark colors and hid from prying eyes.  Our ceremonies were not to be seen

by others.  Should someone discover our place, we were to move to another.

Please remember, I am calling from a VERY small (and close-minded) town in

Florida.  As time went on, I began to open up a bit more, but I still do

not feel comfortable in colored clothing (as far as ritual is concerned).

I am sure (as you said in your message) the the Lady and Lord could care

less if I wore black or puce (well, maybe they'd care about puce :-} )



           Blessed Be!



                                   -=)-



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 * Origin: Opera=Deorum: Home of Baphonet-by-the-Sea




Message Number: [6454]    

From: Aga Windwalker                     Date: 04-23-90
To:   Kihe Blackeagle                    Time: 06:33
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC
Previous Reply: 6453
SeeAalso: 6468



     Actually, when I need to ease pain or heal myself, I use soft blue or

purple as a light.  White to me is a very bright color.  Also, it helps

to maintain my concentration.  I used to be completely incapable of any

form of meditation until I started focussing on a white light.  Any other

color usually began to swirl within itself, like smoke or something.  OF

course, when I am making suggestions, I am only going on what works for me.



"Here is MY way.  What is YOUR way?  THE way does not exist."



                                   Blessed Be!

                                                     -=)-



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 * Origin: Opera=Deorum: Home of Baphonet-by-the-Sea




Message Number: [6455]    

From: Aga Windwalker                     Date: 04-23-90
To:   Steven Craig                       Time: 06:36
Subject: Re: Cthulhul
Previous Reply: 4953
SeeAalso: 6876



     While the book may be a piece of cr&p, you cannot deny the fact that

there are a GREAT many people who actually believe that it works.  I can't

say that I believe in the text, but I do know of a few people who actually

work rituals from that book, and sometimes, they supposedly get results.

Of course, in matters of faith, sometimes faith overrides the basic

premise of the religion.  So, is it completely impossible for someone who

REALLY believes in it and performs a ritual to actually get a result?



                                            -=)-



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 * Origin: Opera=Deorum: Home of Baphonet-by-the-Sea




Message Number: [6456]    

From: Aga Windwalker                     Date: 04-23-90
To:   Julie Rhodes                       Time: 06:38
Subject: Re: GOOD LUCK REQUEST
Previous Reply: 4438



     Hey!  Keep trying.  It sounds like you were the victim of cutbacks.

I've had that happen before.  Keep looking.  You'll find something.



     Blessed Be!!



                       Aga



--- via Silver Xpress V2.20

 * Origin: Opera=Deorum: Home of Baphonet-by-the-Sea




Message Number: [6468]    

From: Ann Waldrum                        Date: 04-22-90
To:   Kihe Blackeagle                    Time: 09:54
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC
Previous Reply: 6454
SeeAalso: 6469

Ah, in "emergencgy field conditions" -- I suggest feet -- fast feet ;-)

--- TBBS v2.1/NM

 * Origin: *Chrysalis*  Multi-User  (214) 519-0728  Dallas, Tx  (124/4214)




Message Number: [6469]    

From: Kihe Blackeagle                    Date: 04-23-90
To:   Ann Waldrum                        Time: 00:13
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC
Previous Reply: 6468
SeeAalso: 6849

Ah, feet may be fast BUT there is the small matter of "you can run but you 

can't hide"! <next?>

 P-{) Pax ... Kihe

--- TBBS v2.1/NM

 * Origin: *Chrysalis*  Multi-User  (214) 519-0728  Dallas, Tx  (124/4214)




Message Number: [6849]    

From: Ann Waldrum                        Date: 04-23-90
To:   Kihe Blackeagle                    Time: 08:12
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC
Previous Reply: 6469
SeeAalso: 6851

Agreed, you can run but you can't hide, but from time to time, you must the 

axioms, eh, just to keep them honest.

--- TBBS v2.1/NM

 * Origin: *Chrysalis*  Multi-User  (214) 519-0728  Dallas, Tx  (124/4214)




Message Number: [6850]    

From: Aethelred Carlile                  Date: 04-24-90
To:   Steven Craig                       Time: 19:52
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC 
Previous Reply: 5792
SeeAalso: 8370

In a message to Edwin Diaz <04-17-90 02:03> Steven Craig wrote:



>     For those working in a Christian tradition, your

>  statement may be correct, but most Pagans do not use such a

>  belief system, and as such may not even recognize the

>  existence of Satan.



        A fair number of Christians don't either. At least not in the sense 

of a personal, ultimate evil.

                - AEthelred  

 

--- QuickBBS 2.64 (Eval)

 * Origin: G.O.D./D.E.S.S. Kansas City's Neo-Pagan BBS (1:280/311)




Message Number: [6851]    

From: Aethelred Carlile                  Date: 04-24-90
To:   Brigid Dragonchild                 Time: 19:56
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC
Previous Reply: 6849
SeeAalso: 8383

In a message to Aga Windwalker <04-17-90 20:01> Brigid Dragonchild wrote:



>  "Colors just distract me too much."

>

>  Then you are missing an awful lot...nothing is ever just

>  black or white...

>

        What about the wonderful world of grey?



        - AEthelred.  

 

--- QuickBBS 2.64 (Eval)

 * Origin: G.O.D./D.E.S.S. Kansas City's Neo-Pagan BBS (1:280/311)




Message Number: [6876]    

From: Amergin O'Kai                      Date: 04-25-90
To:   Aga Windwalker                     Time: 03:32
Subject: Re: Cthulhul
Previous Reply: 6455
SeeAalso: 9057


EID:7d87 14991c10



Greetings from Fennas Istarion!



   Yes, results can be achieved, even when the operator is *well aware* 

of the fact that the ritual text is an artificial literary construct. 

But then how many of us write our own rituals too?  I think I posted 

somewhere on this conference about the "Poems of Heaven and Hell from 

Ancient Mesopotamia" source document, although it could have been 

another echo where this ois getting tossed around.  (Hard to keep them 

all seperate sometimes...)



   I have used one of the sigils in "The Necronomicon Spellbook" to 

reset what appeared to be a hopelessly crashed disk-drive.  BS feeds 

flowers....



BB!



A-OK





--- Opus-CBCS 1.11

 * Origin: Dragonfriend's Place (1:104/11.0)




Message Number: [8370]    

From: Jonathan Hutchins                  Date: 04-26-90
To:   Ammond Shadowcraft                 Time: 13:52
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC 
Previous Reply: 6850
SeeAalso: 8395


MSGID: 1:280/901 4d0ddc5e

 > Re: Is that a trick question?

 >

 >         Isn't that the _right_ of every writer, or did

 > I miss something along the way?



Sorry Ammond, my LINK function isn't good enough for me to 

figure out what you're talking about.



--- FD 1.99c

 * Origin: The Wolf's Den in Kansas City (1:280/901)




Message Number: [8383]    

From: Brigid Dragonchild                 Date: 04-26-90
To:   Aga Windwalker                     Time: 20:57
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC
Previous Reply: 6851
SeeAalso: 8384

AW> You cannot possibly expect me to believe that the robe makes the witch. 

 

No, I expect you to believe that the witch makes the robe...

 

Maybe the answer is to work skyclad with NOTHING to distract you...

 

Personally, I vibrate better to some colours than I do to others...put me in 

a green or purple robe and watch out...put me in red or orange and I am 

subtly different...because of the addition to my own vibrational patterns...

 

Dragonchild

--- TBBS v2.1/NM

 * Origin: *Chrysalis*  Multi-User  (214) 519-0728  Dallas, Tx  (124/4214)




Message Number: [8384]    

From: Brigid Dragonchild                 Date: 04-26-90
To:   Aethelred Carlile                  Time: 20:59
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC
Previous Reply: 8383
SeeAalso: 8385

Even grey is neither just black or just white...but a combination...

with its own vibrational patterns and enhancements.

 

Dragonchild

--- TBBS v2.1/NM

 * Origin: *Chrysalis*  Multi-User  (214) 519-0728  Dallas, Tx  (124/4214)




Message Number: [8385]    

From: Kihe Blackeagle                    Date: 04-27-90
To:   Aga Windwalker                     Time: 00:44
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC
Previous Reply: 8384
SeeAalso: 10121

The Way lies before you, but it is not *my* Way. The Way lies behind and 

beside you as well: those are not mine either. And yet -- the Way *is*.

 

Pax ... Kihe

--- TBBS v2.1/NM

 * Origin: *Chrysalis*  Multi-User  (214) 519-0728  Dallas, Tx  (124/4214)




Message Number: [8395]    

From: Ammond Shadowcraft                 Date: 04-27-90
To:   Jonathan Hutchins                  Time: 09:00
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC 
Previous Reply: 8370
SeeAalso: 8396

In a message to Ammond Shadowcraft <04-26-90 13:52> Jonathan Hutchins wrote:



JH>< > Re: Is that a trick question?

JH>< >

JH>< >         Isn't that the _right_ of every writer, or did

JH>< > I miss something along the way?

JH><

JH><Sorry Ammond, my LINK function isn't good enough for me to

JH><figure out what you're talking about.



        That's ok. I was using a VAX cluster which didn't have quoting 

capibility because the keyboards aren't IBM compatable.



        You said that LaVey had re-edited his SATANIC BIBLE for some 

purpose. You then asked me somewhat flippantly if I were asking you a trick 

question. I replied that it is the right of every writer to edit their works 

as they see fit for whatever reasons they deem fit. That the work under 

discussion is by LaVey is irrelevant.



        I still didn't really understand your objection to LaVey's premise 

that all magick is "black" by nature, being that it causes some change 

beneficial to one's person or community. That is the logical conclusion. 

However we may run away from the premise, it still follows logically.



        B*B Ammond  

 

--- QuickBBS 2.64 (Eval)

 * Origin: THE CRYSTAL CAVE, "DER MAGICK TREFFPUNKT"(719 391-1092 (1:128/50)




Message Number: [8396]    

From: Ammond Shadowcraft                 Date: 04-27-90
To:   Jonathan Hutchins                  Time: 09:07
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC 
Previous Reply: 8395
SeeAalso: 10091

        I found the message...



In a message to Ammond Shadowcraft <04-10-90 11:20> Jonathan Hutchins wrote:



JH>< > JH><Mr. LaVey's world view has been edited so that his

JH><own

JH>< > JH><works and opinions might seem more consistant.

JH>< >

JH>< >         Ok, who edited them and why?

JH><

JH><Is this a trick question?

JH><

JH><He did, for the reason stated.



        ...and I replied that that is his right. Or am I missing something?  

 

--- QuickBBS 2.64 (Eval)

 * Origin: THE CRYSTAL CAVE, "DER MAGICK TREFFPUNKT"(719 391-1092 (1:128/50)




Message Number: [9057]    

From: Steven Craig                       Date: 04-28-90
To:   Aga Windwalker                     Time: 17:33
Subject: Re: Cthulhul
Previous Reply: 6876


EID:f7a4 149c8c26


MSGID: 1:109/120 263a0d9d



  Sorry, I never meant to imply that the rituals within were completely 

useless; what I was denouncing was the historical validity of the work. 

 As you stated, belief is the important factor in any magickal work, 

not the style of the ritual.



  The only thing that bothers me about the magick presented in the 

Necronomicon is the excess hype surrounding a lot of the ritual.  Otherwise, 

the techniques appear sound enough for guiding the mind into higher 

states of conciousness...



 



  -Blessed Be,



   Steve





--- Opus-CBCS 1.12

 * Origin: TIDMADT Enterprises 703-370-7054 USR-DS PCP=DCWAS (1:109/120.0)




Message Number: [10091]    

From: Alan Brookstone                    Date: 05-01-90
To:   Edwin Diaz                         Time: 03:03
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC 
Previous Reply: 8396


EID:a578 14a11862

Edwin, I am not directly involved in an magickal practices. I have 

been interested in several alternative religions over the years & 

probably have an extremely different understanding and perspective 

on some, than most people. I try to be tolerant of most everyone's 

religion, as long as it doesn't involve causing uncalled-for harm 

to the rights of others.

 

I remember someone mentioning an interesting possible solution to 

your concept of "fighting fire with fire" & doing "black magick" 

in return to someone who you feel has done it to you. I think it 

was one of my friends into Wicca. They said that instead of doing 

things that way, it was much healthier to do what they called a "mirror 

spell". In other words, it's like a filter on a good pair of sunglasses, 

that lets good light rays in, but reflects harmful ones. In their 

case, they said one should reflect the harmful back to the sender 

and let any good anyone wishes us in. Make sense? 





--- Opus-CBCS 1.11

 * Origin: Dragonfriend's Place (1:104/11.0)




Message Number: [10097]    

From: Steven Mcdonald                    Date: 05-01-90
To:   Silver Claw                        Time: 12:52
Subject: Re: Black Magic 
Previous Reply: 1336


EID:8e3f 14a16680

 * Replying to a message originally to Edwin Diaz

SC> Better watch it with the "black" magic or using magic

SC> destructively.  Somebody might decide to retaliate.

         

It isn't reallt a matter of retaliation.  It's a matter of the 

boomerang effect.

  

>>>>>>Steve

--- ZMailQ 1.10 @1:102/943.0

 * Origin: Mysteria - Tujunga, Ca 818-353-8891 (1:102/943)




Message Number: [10099]    

From: Shanti Lightdancer                 Date: 05-02-90
To:   All                                Time: 18:41
Subject: rules and regs


EID:067a 14a2952f



As some of you know, I'm preparing a presentation on 

Paganism for my seminary class.  One thing I nearly forgot 

to include is rules and laws.   

    



Most major world religions have a plethora of rules of 

conduct, of course.  In Wicca we have only the Wiccan Rede: 

"[If] it harm none, do what you will."  Do other Pagans 



essentially consider this to be "the whole of the law," or 

are there other "lists of rules" that some follow? 

   



Thanks for any elaboration. 

    



Peace and Bright Blessings, 

   

--Shanti 

 



---

 * Origin: Opera=Amorum, BaphoNet-At-Night =*= (718) 499-9277 (Opus 1:107/666)




Message Number: [10118]    

From: Claudia Slate                      Date: 05-01-90
To:   All                                Time: 09:21
Subject: RELIGIOUS FREEDOM

  

 <Forwarded from UseNet's alt.pagan>

   

 >From "Shaman's Drum: A Journal of Experiential Shamanism", Spring, 1990:

   

                        "Sacramental Use of Peyote

                   Should be Constitutionally Protected"

                            by Timothy White

   

   

  A relatively minor Oregon civil case involving peyote use in a Native 

American Church (NAC) ceremony may soon turn into a landmark Supreme Court 

decision -- it could potentially undermine First Amendment religious 

freedoms, or significantly broaden the right to use peyote in religious 

ceremonies.  

   

On 6 November 1989 the U.S. Supreme Court held hearings on "Oregon 

Employment Division v. Smith, Black, and ADAPT" for the second time in two 

years, and is expected to render a final decision this spring.

  

  The case originated in 1982 when Alfred Smith and Galen Black were 

dismissed as counselors from ADAPT, a Roseburg, Oregon, drug and alcohol 

treatment center.  When Smith, a Klamath Indian, and Black, a non-Indian, 

admitted using peyote during a Native American Church ceremony, their 

supervisor discharged them for violating the agency's rule against drug or 

alcohol use.  When Smith and Black contested their dismissal on grounds of 

religious discrimination, the agency agreed to pay the two men back wages, 

and they agreed not to press for job reinstatements.



  However, when Smith and Black filed for unemployment compensation, state 

unemployment officials turned them down on the grounds that they had been 

fired for misconduct.  The two men appealed their case, arguing that a long 

line of precedent decisions has firmly established that states must pay 

unemployment compensation to employees who lose jobs because of religious 

beliefs.  For example, courts have repeatedly granted unemployment benefits 

to Seventh-Day Adventists for refusing to work on Saturdays (their Sabbath). 

The Oregon Supreme Court agreed with Smith and Black, and ordered the state 

to award them unemployment compensation.



  Because the Smith and Black case involved peyote use, Oregon Attorney 

General Dave Frohnmayer appealed the case to the U.S. Supreme Court. 

Frohnmayer argued that because peyote is illegal under Oregon law, the 

decision could undermine Oregon's ability to control dangerous drugs. Without 

addressing the constitutionality of the case, the Supreme Court returned the 

case to the Oregon court, saying it should decide whether the state needed to 

prosecute the two men under state laws, or grant a religious exception to its 

criminal law against possession of peyote.  The Oregon court replied again in 

favor of Smith and Black, ruling that the two men could neither be sent to 

prison nor refused unemployment compensation, because -- even though the drug 

is illegal under state law -- religious use of peyote is protected under the 

constitutional right to free exercise of religion.



  Frohnmayer's office appealed the case again and, in the process, 

resurrected a four-century-old debate over whether religious use of peyote 

should be prohibited or legalized.  In 1620 Spanish Inquisitors in Mexico 

declared that peyote was the "work of the devil," and declared that use of 

peyote should be persecuted as a heresy.  When the Peyote Way spread through 

Indian reservations across the United States three centuries later -- leading 

to a revival of traditional Indian spiritual beliefs -- zealous Christian 

missionaries tried to suppress the new religious movement, either by calling 

for new laws banning its use, or by encouraging reservation officials to 

persecute peyotists under existing alcohol intoxication laws.  With the 

support of many enlightened non-Indians such as James Mooney and Indian 

Affairs Director John Collier, Indian peyotists fought and won battle after 

battle in courts and legislatures until their right to use peyote was 

eventually recognized by the federal government and more than twenty states.

   

  ... Frohnmayer insists that peyote use is primarily a drug related issue. 

He also argues that the state has the right to outlaw peyote use, just as it 

outlaws religious snake handling or the drinking of poison.  Peyote Way 

proponents charge that laws banning religious use of peyote are archaic, 

thinly-veiled attempts to repress Native religion and culture.  They insist 

that sacramental use of peyote has never been proven harmful, and 

overwhelming evidence indicates the Peyote Way has significantly beneficial 

influences on its members -- most courts have agreed.

   

  ... Although Oregon has never directly prosecuted Indians for religious 

use of peyote, Frohnmayer has stubbornly opposed efforts to sanction 

religious use of peyote in Oregon.  When the Oregon Board of Pharmacy passed 

a provision supporting peyote use in Native American religious services in 

1987, Frohnmayer stepped in and persuaded it to rescind the provision.  He 

has voiced fears that if religious use of peyote is exempted from state drug 

laws, then other groups could claim they use marijuana or other drugs for 

religious purposes.  He argues that under the Oregon Constitution any such 

exemption would have to be extended to all religions or to none, and it 

therefore would put the state's ability to control dangerous drugs "on a very 

slippery slope".

   

  ... Some Native American Church practitioners are concerned that an 

adverse decision could actually aggravate drug and alcohol problems among 

Native Americans.  NAC practitioners adamantly believe that peyote is not a 

drug, but a medicine or sacrament; they are equally adamant that peyote 

should never be mixed with alcohol or other drugs.  In fact, the NAC has 

helped so many Indians to sobriety that it is sometimes referred to as the 

Native American version of Alcoholics Anonymous.

  

  ... [Douglas Laycock] points out that, even if society otherwise restricts 

peyote use, there is ample legal and historical precedent for exempting 

sacramental use of peyote.  He notes that when alcohol was outlawed during 

the 1930s, the National Prohibition Act specifically exempted wine used "for 

sacramental purposes, or like religious rites."

  

  ... Laycock admits that legalizing the use of peyote in bonafide religious 

rituals might open a few doors for other religious groups such as Peyote Way 

Church of God that use peyote as a sacrament, and the Rastafarians and 

Ethiopian Zion Coptic Church that use marijuana as a sacrament.



  ... It would be wonderful if the Supreme Court takes this opportunity to 

establish, once and for all, the constitutional right to use peyote for 

religious purposes; however, such a favorable outcome may be unlikely, given 

the conservative bias of the current Court.  On the other hand, the Court is 

not likely to reverse existing federal laws that specifically permit Native 

American use of peyote -- the consequences of antagonizing over 200,000 NAC 

members, as well as countless members of other religious  minorities that 

could be threatened by such a decision, should be sufficient deterrent.



  ... While NAC members may be prepared to fight alone for their rights, I 

urge our readers, and all shamanic practitioners, to actively support  their 

struggle for religious freedom.  If the right to use peyote in religious 

ceremonies can be outlawed, then the right to hold sweatlodge,  sundance, and 

pipe ceremonies could also be banned again, as they were in the early 1900s. 

And the right to practice other minority religions and shamanic traditions 

could also be threatened again, as it was before our country's founders 

decided to champion religious freedom as our first and foremost 

constitutional right.



--

| Gerald Bryan, Secretary     | "Seeking to bring peace to the War on |

| No More Drug War Foundation |  Drugs via controlled legalization &  |

| 2045 Kearney Street         |  rational, balanced drug education."  |

| Denver, CO 80207-3919       | 303/388-5495 days, 394-3930 evenings. |



   --- An it harm none, do what you will.

--- FM 2.00/beta

 * Origin: Public Access Xenix386/AKCS System: 604-758-8162 (PEP) (89:681/1)




Message Number: [10119]    

From: Claudia Slate                      Date: 05-01-90
To:   All                                Time: 09:23
Subject: Re: RELIGIOUS FREEDOM
SeeAalso: 10120

   

   

Message #4446 "SPIRIT"

Date: 24-Apr-90 2::6:

From: Bill McVay

To:   All

Subj: Supreme Court on Indian use of peyote (fwd)





 * Forwarded from Uucp, 681/1

 * Originally to Bill Mcvay

 * Originally dated 19 Apr 90  13:50:58



 From  oneb!kmcvay

 From: kmcvay@oneb (Ken McVay)

 To:   onebdos!89!682!3!Bill.McVay (Bill McVay)

 Date: Thu, 19 Apr 90 7:28:23 PDT

  

Forwarded message:

  

 Organization: gst's 3B1 - Somerville, Massachusetts

   

 SUPREME COURT SAYS RELIGIOUS USE OF DRUGS NOT PROTECTED UNDER 1ST

            AMENDMENT GUARANTEE OF RELIGIOUS FREEDOM

   

   

The U.S. Supreme court ruled yesterday (17 April 1990) in support of a state 

ruling in a case in Oregon involving two men who were fired from their jobs 

as drug counsellors and prosecuted under criminal law for their admitted use 

of peyote as part of Indian religious practice.  They were also denied 

unemployment benefits.

  

Writing for the court majority (the ruling was 6 to 3), Justice Antonin 

Scalia said:

  

  We have never held that an individual's religious beliefs

  excuse him from compliance with an otherwise valid law.

   

In the report on _All Things Considered_, correspondent Nina Totenberg said:

  

  Scalia cited laws banning polygamy, and laws requiring that everyone pay 

social security taxes as generally applicable laws, even though they offend 

some religious beliefs.  He conceded that the political process will 

sometimes disadvantage smaller and less popular religions, but he called that 

the "unavoidable consequence of democratic government" and said "the 

alternative would be anarchy."



  Justice Sandra Day O'Connor agreed in a concurring opinion that the state 

could refuse to pay unemployment benefits to the fired workers.  But she 

blasted Scalia nonetheless for what she called "a sweeping rewriting of the 

established law in this area."  She said "just because a law is generally 

applicable does not mean that it won't have an undue and unjustified effect 

on a religion or its practices."  She said that each case must be weighed 

individually with the state's interests weighed against the individual's.



  The three dissenting justices went even further, saying that in this case, 

the state's avowed interest in protecting the populace from unsafe drugs was 

a sham, since the state had never prosecuted anyone for peyote use.  For 

members in the Native American church, today's ruling was a major blow. 

Alfred Smith, one of the fired workers whose case the court ruled on, says 

that outlawing the use of peyote in his church amounts to cultural and 

spiritual genocide, because peyote use is at the core of the Native American 

religion:

   

    "That's a central part of the ceremony.  I guess Christians

    would describe it as the "holy body of the sacrament."

   

  And civil libertarians and some mainstream church personnel warn that 

today's ruling could have grave consequences, not just for American Indians, 

but for *many* religions.  Here's Steve Shapiro of the American Civil 

Liberties Union:

   

    "I think it is a serious threat to religious liberty in

    the country, and I think that the simplest way to under-

    stand that is that, under today's decision, the govern-

    ment could have made communion in the Catholic Church a

    crime during Prohibition.  The essential point to be made

    here is that the government has been given much broader

    latitude than they've ever had before to intrude on the

    fundamental religious practices of Americans.  Even laws

    that dramatically impinge on religious freedoms will be

    upheld as long as they are applied to believers and non-

    believers alike."

   

  But in Oregon, state Attorney General David Frohnmeyer (sp?) saw today's 

ruling as important and necessary:

   

    "It's important because it's the first time that the court

    has been faced with the issue of drug use, and the extent

    to which the use of a substance that is illegal for everyone

    else might nonetheless be protected..."

   

  The state Attorney General demurred, however, when asked if state law 

enforcement officials would now go into Native American churches to arrest 

people for using peyote:

  

    "The Attorney General of Oregon does not have any general

    power of prosecution of any kind, except under very un-

    usual circumstances, so we have no policy on that subject,

    and we would not begin launching a special effort to single

    out religious ceremonies of any kind.  That's a decision

    that, in this state, is left to the decision [sic] of local

    local police authorities and local district attorneys.  They

    have very high priorities in other areas."

  

  Attorney General Frohnmeyer, now running for governor, declined to say 

whether he would support a change in his state's law to exempt religious use 

of peyote.  The Supreme Court's ruling today made it clear such exemptions 

are perfectly proper under the U.S. Constitution.

--

Gary S. Trujillo                              gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us

Somerville, Massachusetts

{wjh12,spdcc,ima,cdp}!gnosys!gst

  

--- TBBS v2.1/NM

 * Origin: *Chrysalis*  Multi-User  (214) 519-0728  Dallas, Tx  (124/4214)




Message Number: [10120]    

From: Claudia Slate                      Date: 05-01-90
To:   All                                Time: 09:24
Subject: Re: RELIGIOUS FREEDOM
Previous Reply: 10119

   

Subject: Re: Supreme Court on Indian use of peyote

Date: 20 Apr 90 10:52:52 GMT

From: gnosys.svle.ma.us!NativeNet@uunet.UUCP

Newsgroups:  gen.nativeam

  

   

Although the Supreme Court ruling is "bad law" for Indians, it is not as 

sweeping as it appears.  The local press (here in Santa Fe) reported that it 

is applicable only to Oregon since many other states have passed statutes 

which exempt peyote use for religious purposes from criminal prosecution. (So 

it's a bit like the abortion decision, you have to lobby each state to ensure 

protection.)  Also, some reservations have tribal laws protecting peyote use. 

 The state would be hard pressed to interupt a religious ceremony on the 

reservation.  However, urban sects will have to be more careful.

  

  

-ellen kemper-

  

   

Ken McVay ~ 1B Systems Management Limited ~ uunet!van-bc!oneb!kmcvay

--- TBBS v2.1/NM

 * Origin: *Chrysalis*  Multi-User  (214) 519-0728  Dallas, Tx  (124/4214)




Message Number: [10121]    

From: Silver Claw                        Date: 05-02-90
To:   Brigid Dragonchild                 Time: 16:31
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC
Previous Reply: 8385
SeeAalso: 10122

Try fluorescent colors, hot pink, extremely bright green, etc.  See 

what kind of an effect that has.  heh

 

--- QuickBBS 2.64 (Eval)

 * Origin: G.O.D./D.E.S.S. Kansas City's Neo-Pagan BBS (1:280/311)




Message Number: [10122]    

From: Aethelred Carlile                  Date: 05-02-90
To:   Brigid Dragonchild                 Time: 19:41
Subject: Re: BLACK MAGIC
Previous Reply: 10121

In a message to Aethelred Carlile <04-26-90 20:59> Brigid Dragonchild wrote:



>  Even grey is neither just black or just white...but a combination...

>  with its own vibrational patterns and enhancements.



        My point exactly.



                - AEthelred (I shoot Tri-X) Carlile.  

 

--- QuickBBS 2.64 (Eval)

 * Origin: G.O.D./D.E.S.S. Kansas City's Neo-Pagan BBS (1:280/311)