CELTIC WORKSHOP #4 CELTIC MUSIC This an edited transcript of the fOURTH Celtic Workshop presented by Searles O'Dubhain. The topic for the evening was scheduled to be Celtic Music and Magick in general, the Role of Bards and Druids in Celtic Music, the Music Ogham - Aradach Fionn, Tree tones and their musical associations and some example folk songs and their interpretations. Click here for pre conference chat (2-8,O'Dubh) Before I begin let me say a few words about how the Workshop is conducted. We will first hear from a presenter, tonight that is me. If you have a question type in a ? and I will acknowledge you by typing "ga" at and appropriate time. When you have finished your question type "ga" to let me know that I may respond. When we are finished I will acknowledge the next questioner in a similar manner. If you have a comment or additional information to provide on a topic, please use the "!" to signal me. I will also cycle through those with comments in a similar manner. If their are no questions at this point I will begin tonight's presentation. (2-5,Seanchai) ? (2-8,O'Dubh) The topics I plan to cover tonight are: Music and Magick in general. Role of Bards and Druids in Celtic Music. Aradach Fionn, Tree tones and associations Some example folk songs and interpretations. (2-8,O'Dubh) Seanchai ga. (2-5,Seanchai) Patience is a virtue I need to learn in a hurry. (2-5,Seanchai) I was going to ask, what's tonight's topic. (2-8,O'Dubh) ok ! (2-5,Seanchai) Ga (2-20,O'Ba'n) LOL! (2-11,Nan) lol (2-9,Rose) ditto (2-8,O'Dubh) Anyone that has ever done Magick knows that it involves resonances and associations. Magick has many color associations as well as musical associations. We have all experienced the magick of music in contemporary music. Sometimes this can be in the form of attending a concert, othertimes it can be when we are alone and listening to our favorites tunes. Modern day religious services take advantage of the Magick inherit to music to enhance their worship services. This can be in singing hymns or hearing organ and choral anthems. I'm sure that we will all agree that music in such sitruarions alters our state of being. We are uplifted and changed by the ritual music we experience. It should be no surprise that the ancient Celts used music in a similar manner. In Morgan Llwellyn's "Druids" we find an example of such a Druidic use of music in Magick. The chief Druid of a village would greet the Sun with song and lead the village each day in welcoming the Sun back from the Underworld. When the Sun set, another farewell song was enjoined. This practice is still followed by some in Celtic lands to this day. Examples of such incantations and greetings to the Sun may be found in the "Carmenica Gadetica" a vast resources of ancient and recent Celtic verse and song. (2-8,O'Dubh) Please pardon the typos! In many Magick systems, Words of Power using the names of the Gods are used to create resonances within the Magical Circle so that the Magicians may attain a higher state of awareness. The use of these words also serves to open the internal "Power Centers" or "Chakras" of the participants. These godnames are constructed using the letters of the Magickal alphabets of the respective Magickal systems as well as the natural tones and the corresponding resonances that are associated with each letter or symbol. For example: YHVH Yud Heh Vahv He (a Kaballistic godname) (2-8,O'Dubh) An incantaion of a godname becomes a chant with its own inherent melody and rhythm. Such sounds generated form an occult alphabet are thought by Magicians to have inherit Power in their sounds and to generate Magickal resonances within the Magician and the Circle. It is my belief that the ancient Celts and Druids used music and sounds from their secret Ogham alphabet to aid them in working Magick in a similar manner. (2-8,O'Dubh) Druidic Bards studied for 15 to 20 years to learn the epics, chants, spells and histories of their peoples and clans. These works were memorized exactly and were a requirement for advancement to a higher or inner level of the Druidic ranks. The works had to be rendered with feeling so that the listener would be spell bound and consequently could relive the event. The Irish Druids had the following classes of Bards: Class # of Epics __________________________________________ Driseg 20 (the Beginner) Foclaic 30 (Advanced beginner) Cili 100 (Journeyman) Anraid 175 (Master/Warrior) Ollomh 175+ (Doctor/Judge) (2-8,O'Dubh) Bards learned to play the pipes, the whistle, the harp, the lyre, the flute, the sistrum and the bodrun among other instruments. According to Murry Hope these instruments, were used based upon the mood or tone that the particular Bardic work required. He gives a table of the following correspondences: The Flute - Air (later the Organ) The Harp - Water The Sistrum - Earth (The Bells or Bodrun) The Lyre - Fire Poets and Bards carried branches with bells and amulets attached to them. A beginner's branch would be bronze, journeymen carried a silver branch and the Master Bards carried a golden branch. The music of the bells would announce the Bard's presence and an impending performance. (2-8,O'Dubh) Nan ga (2-11,Nan) what's a sistrum? (2-11,Nan) ga (2-8,O'Dubh) It's a stringed instrument that one beats I believe. Anyone got an opinion? (2-2,Rilla) Ray confirms that. (2-20,O'Ba'n) ? (2-2,Rilla) Precursor of the lute maybe? (2-8,O'Dubh) perhaps. (2-9,Rose) I understand that one shakes it like Isis does in the pictures. (2-22,Wren) Similar to a hammered dulcimer? (2-8,O'Dubh) That's what I was thinking, Wren. (2-11,Nan) or a tambourine? (2-9,Rose) I have a picture of one... (2-8,O'Dubh) Rose ga (2-9,Rose) it looks like a tennis racket. (2-9,Rose) with hooks. (2-8,O'Dubh) And you beat it right? (2-9,Rose) I think so. (2-8,O'Dubh) ok Nan any further questions? (2-11,Nan) got it, thanks (2-9,Rose) shake it. (2-20,O'Ba'n)an ancient metal frame with numerous metal rods that jingle when shaken, websters. (2-9,Rose) bravo. (2-8,O'Dubh) great! (2-20,O'Ba'n) ? (2-11,Nan) no, ga (2-8,O'Dubh) O'ba'n? (2-8,O'Dubh) ok let's roll! (2-20,O'Ba'n) wait (2-8,O'Dubh) O'ban ga! (2-20,O'Ba'n) are the instruments dedicated to... (2-20,O'Ba'n) their various areas based on the tonal range they cover or... (2-20,O'Ba'n) the quality of the sound? (2-20,O'Ba'n) ga (2-8,O'Dubh) It's the quality of the sound mostly. The same way they would be scored in an orchestra for instance. (2-20,O'Ba'n) ok. (2-20,O'Ba'n) ga (2-8,O'Dubh) ga (2-20,O'Ba'n) no, you ga! (2-20,O'Ba'n) (2-8,O'Dubh) My own belief is that the Bards usually accompanied themselves with the harp as they recited their repertorie. Just as Oghams were used as keys to memory with verses being linked by assonance and alliteration, I believe that each Ogham had a unique tone or note associated with it on the harp. The tone or string was struck as the Ogham sound was spoken or sung two notes per line. The begining and ending notes serving to connect each line to the next line in a continuing stream. In the world of my my imagination I can hear the tones and words of the Bards echoing as they float upon a wave of melody acroos the room. The sound reminds me of chanting monks or the plainsong of worship (similar to modern Anglican or Roman Catholic Plainsong). (2-8,O'Dubh) Sean O'Boyle, a late Irish scholar, made an attempt to interpret "Aradach Fionn" (Fionn's Ladder) as harp tabulature using Oghams. He suggested that the Irish practice harp that has only 20 strings has a 1 to 1 correspondence to the first 20 Oghams. As far as I know,no records survived to reach us verifying his theory. It seems to make sense to me but I only speculate. (2-8,O'Dubh) A modern work "Trees for Healing" by Chase and Pawlik, reinforces this belief for me. This book is all about trees, their lore and their spirits. It describes techniques for meditation to determine the harmonic resonaces for a variety of trees. I believe that the ancient Druids also detected certain harmonic tones for each tree and used then in their Tree Ogham Alphabet. If we use the tones that have been rediscovered by Chase and Pawlik and combine them with the ancient chants, incantations and songs of Taliesin and Amergin, we may also be able to work powerful Magicks. This Magick can take any form from enchanting an audience to calling the winds. The Greek Bard Orpheus was able to walk between the worlds in this manner and so can we. I list the trees and the derived modern tonal correspondences below: Ogham Old Irish English Musical Note ____________________________________________________ B Beith Birch F L Luis Rowan C F Fearn Alder E S Saille Willow F N Nuin Ash G ____________________________________________________ H Huathe Hawthorn B D Duir Oak F T Tinne Holly G C Coll Hazel D Q Quert Apple. D# ____________________________________________________ M Muin Vine G G Gort Ivy G Ng Ngetal Reed F St Straif Blackthorn B R Ruis Elder A ____________________________________________________ A Ailim Silver Fir A O Ohn Furze E U Ur Heather B E Eadha White Poplar E I Ioho Yew F ____________________________________________________ Ch,Ea Koad Grove F Oi,Th Oir Spindle C Ui Uilleand Honeysuckle D Ph Phagos Beech A Xi Mor The Sea G (2-8,O'Dubh) Some of these tones were derived by meditation and resonance, some are based upon the colors associated with the Oghams. My suggestion is to (2-11,Nan) ? (2-8,O'Dubh) find such a tree yourself and to meditate under it. play a pipe, a whistle or a harp (even a guitar will do in a pinch!) until you find (2-22,Wren) ? (2-20,O'Ba'n)? the correct tone for the tree. Other tones will reflect from the tree. The "soul tone" of the tree will be absorbed and you will possibly feel a tingle of energy that is released by the Spirit of the Tree. This experience is somewhat akin to the common belief in Ireland (even today) that a particularily gifted musician, harper or piper has been taught by the Sidhe (famed for their enchanted music). Celts believe in harmony and rightness in all things and particularily in Nature. (2-8,O'Dubh) Nan ga (2-11,Nan) I noticed that many different oghams had the same note... are these the same notes or are they in differing octaves? ga (2-8,O'Dubh) The table I presented is not cast in stone! (2-11,Nan) or even in wood? (2-8,O'Dubh) The first approach has each ogham on a different tone For Fionn's ladder for instance. The second approach used meditation techniques to determine the "soul tones" of the trees Some trees evidently have a similar feel to them. I think that the table needs some work myself. Perhaps one of the more musically gifted members could undertake such a study! (2-24,da Medic) ? (2-8,O'Dubh) ? (2-8,O'Dubh) ga Nan (2-8,O'Dubh) additional questions? (2-8,O'Dubh) If not then Wren was next. (2-20,O'Ba'n) ! (2-11,Nan) no, i think wren had some though (2-8,O'Dubh) Wren ga (2-22,Wren) Already answered, thanks. Gotta go, g'nite! (2-8,O'Dubh) Sla'n Wren! (2-11,Nan) g'night wren (2-8,O'Dubh) O'ba'n ga (2-20,O'Ba'n) need to have the transmogrification of what tree is which out west for me to do it... (2-20,O'Ba'n) but with that I'd love to do the tree/tone thing! (2-8,O'Dubh) Ok I'll put a table in the library this week. (2-20,O'Ba'n) GA (2-24,da Medic) does this explain the prevalence of willow/oak in celtic magicks? ga. (2-20,O'Ba'n) Cool! (2-8,O'Dubh) da Medic ga (2-24,da Medic) sorry, saw the ga. (2-8,O'Dubh) Yes it does to some extent. I have entire books on nothing but healing properties of trees. I'm sure Druids knew much more. (2-11,Nan) ? (2-8,O'Dubh) Nan ga (2-11,Nan) could you please post a bibliography of some of those books??? (pretty please?) (2-11,Nan) ga (2-8,O'Dubh) Ok will do that as well this week! (2-20,O'Ba'n) yes! yes! (2-8,O'Dubh) Now to continue... Some of this Magick comes down to us today in the form of folk songs still sung in the outer reaches of Ireland and the British Isles. Such a song is the "Padstow May Song" from Padstow, Cornwall (in part): "Unite and unite and let us unite For summer is acome unto day And whither we are going we will all unite In the merry morning of May." "I warn you young men everyone To go into the greenwood and fetch your May home." "Arise up Mr. _______ and joy you betide And bright is your bride that lies by your side." "Arise up Mrs. _______ and gold be your ring And give to us a cup of ale the merrier we shall sing." "Arise up Miss ______ all in your gown of green You are as fine a lady as wait upon the Queen." "Now fare you well, and we bid you all good cheer We call once more unto your house before another year." (2-8,O'Dubh) I interpret this song to mean this: This song is sung on Beltaine and is said to charge the atmosphere of the festival. It symbolizes the marriage of the youth with the land. (Unite and unite and let us unite) It also adresses 3 individuals: A man, a woman and a Maiden in a green gown (who represents Nature). This song is sung around the May Pole or May bonfires in the evening (and prior to anyone escaping to the outer folds of darkness for an evening of bliss ). (2-8,O'Dubh) Another ancient folk song that has hidden meanings of Magick is the song "Green Grow the Rushes": " One of them is all alone and ever more shall be so. Two of them are lily-white boys all clothed all in green Oh! Three of them are strangers o'er the wide world they are rangers. Four it is the Dilly Hour when blooms the Gilly Flower. Five it is the Dilly Bird that's seldom seen but heard. Six is the Ferryman in the boat that o'er the river floats, Oh! Seven are the Seven Stars in the Sky, the Shining Stars be Seven, Oh! Eight it is the Morning's break when all the World's awake, Oh! Nine it is the pale Moonshine, the shining Moon is nine, Oh! Ten Forgives all kinds of Sin, from Ten begin again, Oh! " (2-8,O'Dubh) This song can be interpreted to mean: 1. There is One Power. 2. The God has two aspects (Light and Dark). 3. The Celts are a wadering people with the sacred number of "3". 4. The 4th Ogham is the Alder sacred to Bran the Blessed and his sister Branwen "the Gilly Flower". 5. The Wizard Merlin as well as the sacred number of the Celtic Gods (not to mention the number of points on a Pentagram). 6. Keridwen's Coracle that ferries us to the Underworld. 7. The sacred number of sea gods and the stars in the crown of Arianrhod. 8. The number of judgement or resurrection. 9. The Triple Moon Goddess Thrice emphasized The number of Priestesses that guard the Cauldron of Rebirth. 10.The necessity to find our "True Selves" in order to understand the Inner Mysteries. The endless cycle of death and rebirth. (2-8,O'Dubh) Everone still awake? (2-20,O'Ba'n) ? (2-2,Rilla) I am! (2-8,O'Dubh) O'Ba'n ga! (2-20,O'Ba'n) this is your interpretation? (2-20,O'Ba'n) GA (2-8,O'Dubh) It is also Murry Hope's interpretation. I have seen a different version of this song. (2-20,O'Ba'n) suits me! GA (2-8,O'Dubh) that is used by OATh coven and had hoped that perhaps they would be here tonight. (2-24,da Medic) ! (2-8,O'Dubh) da Medic ga (2-24,da Medic) Cunningham also had summat similar ga. (2-8,O'Dubh) Which book?ga (2-24,da Medic) Not sure, will check & advise, me thinks in Earth Air Fire water ga (2-8,O'Dubh) Ok I have that one here will check in a min. let's finish up a bit first! (2-8,O'Dubh) Perhaps some of you have some ancient or even modern Celtic folk songs that you would like to share with us this evening? You could enter them here and we could discuss them in detail or maybe just take them to our hearts and embrace their inner messages (for Celtic Music is a music of the Heart and Soul). I know that many of you are very into Celtic Music. I'd like to have each of us contribute the names and titles of our favorite performers and songs. (2-8,O'Dubh) My favorite song is the "Rising Of the Moon" by the Clancy Brothers and Tommy Liam. (2-24,da Medic) ! (2-8,O'Dubh) da Medic ga (2-24,da Medic) Joe doughterty's lament, black 47 (2-24,da Medic) ga (2-8,O'Dubh) ok ! Others? (2-20,O'Ba'n) all mine deal with young maidens getting taken advantage of or with drinking, mostly poiti'n (e.g.Cruiscean lan) (2-11,Nan) ! (2-8,O'Dubh) hahaha LOL O'Ba'n !! (2-20,O'Ba'n) ! (2-8,O'Dubh) O'Ba'n ga (2-26,Adam) ? (2-11,Nan) there are sooooo many i can't chose a favorite, but one of the more interesting is "the Tain" by Horselips ga (2-8,O'Dubh) neat nan! (2-20,O'Ba'n) Do you know Ben phagin? I have it but no translation, also the well below the valley o! (2-8,O'Dubh) Most Celtic songs I've heard always have a hidden meaning (2-20,O'Ba'n) GA (2-8,O'Dubh) un minuto OB! (2-8,O'Dubh) Adam question? ga (2-26,Adam) OD, I lost some of your send :P Which is your favorite song? (2-8,O'Dubh) Adam> My favorite song is the Rising of the Moon. by the Clancy Brothers and Tommy Liam. (2-24,da Medic) ! (2-20,O'Ba'n) O'flaherty's drake! (2-26,Adam) thanks :) (2-8,O'Dubh) OB>Have that one as well. (2-8,O'Dubh) OB ga (2-24,da Medic) gotta go do the work thing-Blesed Be! ga (2-20,O'Ba'n) that one is all about english occupation and resistance as related to a duck (2-11,Nan) lol (2-8,O'Dubh) OB>I know it well (it's about a goose I thought) (2-20,O'Ba'n) how 'bout 5 (or 7) nights drunk! (2-11,Nan) ? (2-8,O'Dubh) But it's really about a man that was killed by the English. They had to sing it in riddles to avoid being hanged. (2-20,O'Ba'n) O'D> and how we has plenty of relatives to take up the fight! (2-8,O'Dubh) That's right. I am reading Trinity right now. about the fight for home rule. (2-8,O'Dubh) more favorites out there? (2-4,Da Shad) OD, went to an Irish festival this weekend... (2-2,Rilla) (2-4,Da Shad) and was really shocked at how strong a presense that the IRA had there, several booths for signing petitions and sending money to the IRA. Pledges even! (2-20,O'Ba'n) "bad luck to the savage to grease his white cabbage that wantonly murdered me beautiful drake" BTW Drakes are male ducks... (2-20,O'Ba'n) Ganders are male geese (2-11,Nan) (2-20,O'Ba'n) (2-8,O'Dubh) Da Shad>They need to do something settle the issues up there. (2-8,O'Dubh) OB>Yer right yer scoundrel. :P~ (2-8,O'Dubh) Nan>great! (2-8,O'Dubh) Any ideas about next week's Workshop? (2-4,Da Shad) If the IRA really wanted to get the brits out... (2-8,O'Dubh) Hint hint hint! (2-4,Da Shad) they just need to blow up the shipyards in Northern Ireland. (2-20,O'Ba'n) I spoke to an Irishman who was probably in the IRA since he denied it... (2-4,Da Shad) Once there is no more economic value in northern ireland- ... (2-11,Nan) how about a workshop on stone circles etc. (2-4,Da Shad) there owuld be no more need for the brits to keep troops there. (2-20,O'Ba'n) his theory was for the Brits to just pull out, I said "bloodbath would follow", he said... (2-8,O'Dubh) Nan> Great idea!! (2-4,StonedAgain) Just call me stonie! (g) (2-20,O'Ba'n) yes for 3-5 yrs then it would settle down and achieve normalcy with the rest of Ireland (2-11,Nan) is this wkshp officially over? (loggin on long distance here) (2-20,O'Ba'n) one would guess (2-8,O'Dubh) yes Nan we're done for the night. (2-2,Rilla) Nice job, Odie! (2-4,Shadow Hawk) Gee, didn't realize that there was a workshop going on, sorry. (2-2,Rilla) (2-8,O'Dubh) Thanks Rilla! (2-11,Nan) thanks for another great one O'D', see y'all next week! (2-8,O'Dubh) Sla'n Nan! (2-11,Nan) bye (2-8,O'Dubh) Ta failte romhat! (2-2,Rilla) night Nan~! (2-20,O'Ba'n) gabhaim buiochas, O'Dubh (2-20,O'Ba'n) Slan nan! (2-20,O'Ba'n) did I get that right O;d? (2-8,O'Dubh) OB>A Gaeilge/Bearla dictionary is a dangerous thing to have! (2-20,O'Ba'n) ROFL! TOO RIGHT! (2-20,O'Ba'n) do you know the tune well below the valley? (2-2,Rilla) OB> are you a Bard? (2-8,O'Dubh) OB> no (2-20,O'Ba'n) R> wannabe (2-2,Rilla) do you do music? (2-20,O'Ba'n) I suspect that has all kinds of hidden meanings, will send in msg so you can figger it out (2-26,Adam) OD, I enjoyed sitting in on the workshop :) (2-26,Adam) it was my first in this forum. (2-20,O'Ba'n) R> *I* play Feadog! (tinwhistle) (2-8,O'Dubh) Adam>Thanks for coming! Go raibh maith agat! (2-20,O'Ba'n) pleased to have you Adam! (2-2,Rilla) oh! (2-2,Rilla) neat! (2-15,SCOTT ZAGER) M (2-8,O'Dubh) OB> I bet rising Of the Moon Is great on the tin whistle. My daughter plays it on her flute. (2-20,O'Ba'n) R> AND it's a grand Irish voice I';m havin' (2-8,O'Dubh) Rilla> Guess what? (2-2,Rilla) I saw all kinds of cool stuff in the Lark in the Morning catalog (2-2,Rilla) tin whistles and ancient instruments... (2-2,Rilla) they were really expensive though (2-8,O'Dubh) At my daughter's Episcopal Church this weekend they are going to have a shamnistic dancer! (2-20,O'Ba'n) O'd, it's ok but fenian men is better (2-2,Rilla) OB> voice??? I've never HEARD it...so I wouldnt know (2-8,O'Dubh) O'B>Methinks I like the Men of the West better. (2-2,Rilla) OD> really? (2-20,O'Ba'n) "the lark in the morning she whistles and she sings and she flys across the meadow with the dew all on her wings" (2-2,Rilla) cool! (2-2,Rilla) very nice! (2-2,Rilla) Now where's the TAPE? (2-2,Rilla) or WAV file? (2-2,Rilla) hehehe (2-8,O'Dubh) Yep Rilla>She's gonna be raising a Christian Power Cone I guess! (2-20,O'Ba'n) I have a tape, marty Burke, must make a copy & send it to you O'd (2-2,Rilla) OD> Power is Power (2-2,Rilla) I learned all I know in High Mass (2-4,Shadow Hawk) Hmmm, OD, that's MUCH too phallic a symbol for christians to raise! (2-4,Shadow Hawk) How high were you in mass, rilla? (2-20,O'Ba'n) Bonewits has a lot on that, rituals VERY similar (2-8,O'Dubh) I must be there to make sure they don't fry themselves! (2-2,Rilla) SH> heheheh (2-4,Shadow Hawk) (snicker) (2-2,Rilla) o/~ memories o/~ (2-2,Rilla) OD> make em ground! (2-8,O'Dubh) "O the risin o the Moon the risin o the Moon Many a pike was a flashin" (2-2,Rilla) what are we doing for Beltaine? (2-8,O'Dubh) "by the Risin o the Moon!" (2-26,Adam) y'all, I got to leave the room now... (2-4,Shadow Hawk) Rilla, we be raisin a cone of power (g) (2-2,Rilla) SH> did Sz tell you that I am definitely coming to Fla? (2-26,Adam) I am talking with a very dear friend... (2-8,O'Dubh) I'm heading to OATh for Beltaine if they'll have me. (2-2,Rilla) SH> a raisin? (2-2,Rilla) (2-2,Rilla) oh! (2-4,Shadow Hawk) Bye Adam! (2-2,Rilla) lucky you! (2-26,Adam) thanks again :) MP (2-4,Shadow Hawk) No she didn't Rilla (2-8,O'Dubh) Sla'n Adam!! Next week and check library 16 out! (2-26,Adam) I have been, OD :) (2-2,Rilla) SH> thought we could all stay at the Hyatt..under the waterfall! (2-2,Rilla) (2-8,O'Dubh) Great!! (2-2,Rilla) night Adam! (2-8,O'Dubh) Beannacht leat! (2-2,Rilla) nice to see you again! (2-4,Shadow Hawk) Rilla, if you want, I can stay down all night.... (2-4,Shadow Hawk) I have my own scuba equipment (g) (2-2,Rilla) hahahahahahah....an extra set?? (2-8,O'Dubh) OB>BTW what was that first thing in that post you sent me? (2-4,Shadow Hawk) I would bring an octopus for you. (2-2,Rilla) time for me to go too folks... (2-8,O'Dubh) Sounded like "Quiet child" (2-2,Rilla) Odie> thanks!!! (2-2,Rilla) this was wonderful! (2-4,Shadow Hawk) Nite Rilla (2-8,O'Dubh) or listen up kiddies! (2-8,O'Dubh) Rilla no prob. A labor of love! (2-2,Rilla) (2-2,Rilla) it shows (2-8,O'Dubh) Hugs! (2-20,O'Ba'n) "Come and tell me sean o'ferrel, tell me why you hurry so..." got me goin o'd, "is there a bathroom on this floor" (2-8,O'Dubh) no not that one (2-20,O'Ba'n) (had to go change a diaper, yuck) (2-8,O'Dubh) the one where the arch Druid said (2-20,O'Ba'n) oh! hang on ... (2-8,O'Dubh) The reply was "He is the Father". (2-8,O'Dubh) "Hush me Buch all hush and listen and his cheeks were all a glow!" (2-20,O'Ba'n) Can't find it right now, was supposed to say "hush children" and "yes father" (2-8,O'Dubh) "I bear orders from the captain, get you ready quick and soon, for the pikes must be together" (2-20,O'Ba'n) "I bear orders for the captain get ye ready wuicka nd soon... (2-8,O'Dubh) "by the Risin o the Moon!" (2-20,O'Ba'n) wuicka? a new religion? (2-4,Shadow Hawk) Wuicka-Wombat wicca (g) (2-8,O'Dubh) OB>Great I thought it said "Quiet child and He is the Father!" (2-20,O'Ba'n) O'd >LOL!< do you know the wearin' of the green? same tune. (2-8,O'Dubh) Yes!! "They're hangin men and women for the Wearin o the Green!" (2-20,O'Ba'n) a gaeilge/bearla dictionary is a dangerous thing. (2-8,O'Dubh) hahahahaha! (2-20,O'Ba'n) BTW how do you say Andrew jacob in gaelic? (2-20,O'Ba'n) my eldest (2-8,O'Dubh) (2-8,O'Dubh) I'll ask in FLEFO! (2-20,O'Ba'n) nuts. (2-20,O'Ba'n) my middle is Michilene Og (sp?) (2-20,O'Ba'n) flefo? (2-20,O'Ba'n) son that is (2-8,O'Dubh) BTW Conor mac Nessa from the Tain was Called Conor son of Nessa but Nessa was his Mother! (2-20,O'Ba'n) Really! (2-8,O'Dubh) yeppers! (2-20,O'Ba'n) were they matrilineal? (2-20,O'Ba'n) :0 (2-8,O'Dubh) They were bilineal! (2-8,O'Dubh) Mostly the fathers side though! (2-20,O'Ba'n) LOL! (2-8,O'Dubh) However they did marry the Picts and made them agree to trace lineage on the Mother's side! (2-20,O'Ba'n) I heard somewhere they were matrilineal, since they were quite open sexualy (2-20,O'Ba'n) (2-8,O'Dubh) The women had a lot of different partners. and the men went both ways if you can believe a lyin Roman that is! (2-20,O'Ba'n) yup, so how do you know WHO your father is? (2-8,O'Dubh) Simple!! Yer da's the one that wins the fights! (2-20,O'Ba'n) the Romans were...uh... a little...ethnocentric? >LOL! (2-20,O'Ba'n) have you got any music by planxty, or dedanan? (2-8,O'Dubh) OB.No I wish I did though. (2-20,O'Ba'n) Great stuff, traditional. (2-20,O'Ba'n) or Shanachie records, mail order, HoHokus (?) NJ (2-20,O'Ba'n) they have an excellent Celtic catalog (2-8,O'Dubh) that's Hoboken and it's close to me now! (2-20,O'Ba'n) if you can't find them find a Ladysmith Black Mombasa record and ck the pub, that's them (2-8,O'Dubh) ok bro thanks! (2-20,O'Ba'n) those are the guys that backed up paul simon on graceland (At this point we all retired to the VB&G for some shots o Uisce Beatha!)